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Design Your Sales Page To Convert

What’s more important copy or design on a sales page?

In this episode of The Launch Playbook Podcast prepare for a battle of the ages…or more accurately of the marketers.

I’ve invited my biz bestie, Doris Chung, a conversion sales page designer onto the show so we can talk it out AND then she’s sharing conversion design tips you can use to boost sales on your next launch . 


I spoke to Doris about:

  • how to create something that makes people really pay attention
  • what Doris actually focuses on for conversion design
  • how the sales coaching she offered her clients lead to conversion sales design
  • leaving room for the upsell and downsell in your offer
  • what comes first copy or design
  • how design should influence your copy
  • when to buy a sales page template and what problems may crop up if you don't know how to edit them
  • who you should buy your sales page templates from (and why)
  • can conversion sales pages be pretty?
  • missed opportunities that can hurt conversions
  • how to drive people to scroll through your sales page 
  • ways to optimize your sales page for conversion
  • knowing you're ready to hire a conversion sales page designer

People and things mentioned in this episode

Doris Chung

Liquid Ink

Access to a brand one-sheet coming soon 

Learn more about our guest, Doris Chung

Doris Chung is a Hong Kong-born, Canadian-raised powerhouse 11 boss mama to a wise-beyond-her-years daughter. She is a multi-generational business owner, serial entrepreneur, and founder of multiple companies including Liquid Ink (a print and design studio), Publisher Production Solutions (a 14 publishing service bureau) and Girl Love Fund (a charitable give back), to name a few.

As a passionate design and branding expert, Doris amplifies the voice of female entrepreneurs by solving their business, branding, and marketing challenges. She’s known for finding out-of-the-box solutions that attract, nurture, and strengthen client relationships.

Doris mentors her roster of private clients as well as provides mentorship through several entrepreneurial groups. She designs conversion sales pages through

Read the full transcript so you don't miss a thing

Sara: What's more important copier design on a sales page? Today on the launch playbook podcast Prepare for battle of the ages, or more accurately of the marketers. I've invited my biz bestie Doris Chung, a conversion sales page designer onto the show so we can talk it out. And then she's sharing conversion design tips you can use to boost sales on your next launch. You're going to want to stay tuned for this. You're listening to the launch playbook podcast, the weekly podcast for service-based business owners to discover the start stops and tools of transformation that go into launching their online offers. I'm your host, Sara Vartanian. And if you want to launch your ideas into the world faster, with more success and less burnout. Well, friend, consider this show your secret playbook to get you there.

Hi, Doris, welcome to the show today. I'm so excited you're here and that we get to take one of our fabulous conversations we have offline onto the podcast today. Because I know we've been talking for years about all things marketing, and copy and design. So I'm really thrilled that you're here.

Doris: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Sarah, I'm so happy to be here. And congratulations on your podcast.

Sara: Thank you, Will you tell us a little bit about how you got to be a conversion sales pitch designer.

Doris: I am serial entrepreneur. And I started out working with my family in our printing business. And in within a few years, I kind of took over and made it my own and converted that business into a full publishing house. And and then I evolved again a few years later, by creating another company called liquid ink where I do print and design. And it has evolved one more time where I now create products for coaches and
a lot of consultants you've worked with.

Sara: I think and creatives.

Doris: Yeah. And some speakers. And while I did all that stuff, I also did website design. And that's where I kind of swung into and discovered convergent sales pages. That's how I got here. Nice and why? Why sales pages as opposed to sticking with this web page web design? Honestly, it's because there are tons of web designers out there. Yeah. So I kind of wanted to really specialize and niche in something that there aren't that many of us out there that know how to do it well. And it's really kind of my thing.

Sara:  Now, I love that I think let's let's let the listeners in on a little bit of like our history here. But I think over the past year, you and I have both really niche down our businesses. I mean, I've come from working on social media, caption writing, and helping people do their newsletters and and also helping with their lunches, but more heavily on social media to really niche down into full launch copywriting. And you have also done that kind of niching down and shift this past year.

Doris: Yeah, I am. I found myself actually even supporting a lot of my clients with sales coaching as well. So this was kind of a real fit, because I'm so fascinated to by the whole journey that we put our clients and customers on going through, you know, like even with liquid ink when we make products, our product design and what we make for our clients, I equally think about that kind of sales process and what interests them, how do they purchase it? What what are the products that they want?

Sara: I always remember that from one of our first conversations like I think we met, what, eight years ago now. And and you know, you were my designer, from my one of my first businesses, which I won't go into right now. But I know that something you always said to me was that when you're designing those kind of products, with creating something that people want to keep, right, like on the fridge, and not throw out and something that they really matters to them. And that always stood out to me, because no other designer that I've worked with it actually has brought that in to our conversation.

Doris: Yeah, I think that there's we have so much stuff, right, like we have, we get bombarded by ads, on on television, even on YouTube, to things that still come in the mail. And I think that oftentimes, business owners just think that they just need to put the information that they want to get out there. Yeah, but what they don't realize is, and I know you know this because you're the copywriter. It's really like it has to speak to that recipient has to speak to them. So if you throw all the information down, it almost looks like those. You've seen them those postcards when we go to clubs. Yeah. And they like try to jam pack in the small, like five by seven postcard and everything. Yeah, and they put it on top of that. really busy kind of like that just trying to convey that kind of what does it like? Like, like how the rock music's gonna push
through this.

Sara: When you're thinking about that, it remember Here's something that's like come up a few times lately for me and copywriting. That doing that is like creating basically a pattern interrupt. So we're sending them I know we did in copywriting where we want to, you know, change the story or produce something unexpected to make people pause and like really pay attention. And I feel like it's the same with what you're creating with those products. Right? Yeah, definitely. So shifting back over to the sales page design, I really love that you have like, gone all in on doing that. Because one, I mean, obviously, you and I are strategic partners, as well as Bessie. So I love that I can refer people to you, yes. But also that, I don't know if I don't put you but I have found, the more niche we go. And the more specific I go, the easier and more creative like these are my business becomes to do to execute and the more fun it is because I get better at it. And it's quicker. And I get and then I get more experienced at it. But also that I become more creative with having like less things to think about. I don't know if that happens to you as well.

Doris: Oh, definitely. You know, like, when I do websites, we're talking about, like, how many pages are there, you know, you have a minimum of like four to five and then and then in some cases, clients want a page for everything. Yeah. And then the simple website has turned into a 20 page website, because you almost want everything above the fold. Right? And to just keep track of that, and the cost behind it. Like, in the end. It's just it's too much. It's too much to track. Right. I think that that's really right. Like what I like about what we do in conversion sales pages, you know, like it boils down to the opt in page. And then what least for me anyways, the opt in page, the thank you page Hmm, and then the sales page and the thank you page, those are the things that I'm designing, when someone hires me, and there's always like, it's always, they almost always come in pairs.

Sara: Yeah. And I like I don't about you by like how everything that we're doing is tied to like a direct ROI. Like there's sales involved. And everything we're doing, then we know we like that since we talk sales. I realized that we jumped over what you were saying earlier about that you do sales coaching for people that also led you into focusing on sales pages specifically, what kind of things were you talking to people about with sales consulting? What are some of the things that were coming up a lot?

Doris: Oh, I generally, when I'm working with my clients is usually with a focus on money mindset. Yeah. So oftentimes, it's the confidence that they have within themselves. And it relates it correlates to the pricing, right? Of what their offers. And it is really amazing how either offer is too high, or it's too low. And really kind of understanding why it there's a bit of psychology and in the, you know, everything, but generally, that's what we kind of end up talking about.
bI feel like that comes up a lot too. When I'm writing coffee for people as well around that pricing, it always is an issue, I think, almost always. And the other thing I see a lot and I'm sure that you do with the clients you're working with is almost trying to put too many things into the offer. And I think that there is something around that like money mindset in there as well. or feeling like we just have to give you everything for that price,

Sara: I feel like that comes up a lot too. When I'm writing coffee for people as well around that pricing, it always is an issue, I think, almost always. And the other thing I see a lot and I'm sure that you do with the clients you're working with is almost trying to put too many things into the offer. And I think that there is something around that like money mindset in there as well. or feeling like we just have to give you everything for that price.

Doris: You have to leave some things I know where we might or might not cover this, but we don't like when we have the offer. There's also the upsell and the down sell, right? And so having room for that, or having like really knowing what the different packages that you can offer. So that becomes another thing that that they have to think about. Right?

Sara: Yeah. Okay, so let's get into the battle. We could call it but I want to know, Doris, what comes first copy or design?

Doris: You think that I would say design, right? But actually, I'm gonna I'm gonna vote on your side. And it's copy first, you know, I'm getting very self satisfied feeling here.
Hundred percent we know, it's a close with designs a close second. But copies. Even though I have a few like frameworks that I have, or designs that I have set, it plays a big part what the copy is because we only have so many lines. And I'm designing for desktop, mobile and mobile also like tablet mobile. And it's limited, right? So in some cases, it can really affect how big the type is. Or, you know, sometimes I asked for an edit, but most of the time I kind of take what I'm given to design it. But if I just gave you something in advance, or if you got something in advance how like it's like trying to fit into this, right any box? 

Sara: Well, first I'm gonna tell you my answer to although you know it, but let's go listeners that. So I definitely believe coffee comes first. And I think that's because without listening to our ideal clients, and you know, doing that customer research and getting our messaging down, we're actually not going to create a winning offer and be able to communicate it to our would be clients. So I will think it comes first as well. But I will confess here because I've worked with you on numerous sales pitches of my own, that I know that the design helps the copy to shine and it brings it out and makes it like interesting and readable and really does a heavy lift for the copy as well. And I know that working with you, I would say even though it's helped me write better copy It pains me to confess. Not really. But I know that like something we've talked about is I've been more purposeful about my spacing, or even like my headline lengths, you know, because sometimes I do tend like, and that's okay, because it's also on editing, like I do editing rounds. But I do I know for myself, I tend to do longer headlines. So something to keep that in mind, like keeping it to no more than two lines and thinking about also in general, like spacing and lanes and having different font treatments to call attention to certain things, right. And also even, like, something I've really taken away from you is using different techniques to highlight section. So maybe I'm using checkmarks, or something, and maybe I'm using bullet points, or maybe I want to use emojis to like, make people read down the page, as opposed to just doing the same thing every single time, like changing it up. And being more conscious about that purposeful. So that's something I really learned from you through our work together.

Doris: Yeah, we have them, we have other solutions for the headlines. Because now we have like, a special, we have that option of the different type size. Yeah, to kind of, like sometimes that contrast of that small type. Yeah. So we kind of say introducing might replace you say what we're introducing this the only Yeah, take that out now. Right. And then it really is a headline for sure.

Sara: Now that we both agree on what you know, first and close second. Let's look with a little bit of a loophole scenario I brought up to you before and that's where sometimes I have clients come to me, and you know, they want copywriting. But they've already purchased a sales page template, or they're thinking about purchasing one. And like their budget is such that they can't, let's say at this time, you know, hire a copywriter and a designer. So they're choosing to be the copywriter and then use a template. So do you think it's okay to do this? before they get the copy? Should they wait for it to come after? Or is it really a different question they should be considering instead?

Doris: Although, obviously, if if they are not hiring me, I would say buy it after right? Usually, if you're going to purchase a template, there's usually a sample for you to see. So to start off with that as an initial framework, but again, it really does boil down to why copy has to come first. You know, like with the work that you do you research and you listen for the voice of the the target audience, sometimes you can't you just can't fit it in like I mean, I've seen some of those templates, where they kind of give you like, two line headline and three line body copy. And it's just not enough to kind of like really get someone to scroll down.

Sara: And something I've noticed too, we've talked about is that they're often missing certain really key things like there's not a section, let's say for the guarantee. And we both know that that's a really important part of a conversion sales page. Or they haven't, you know, they only have what a one spot where they kind of list all the things that go into it, you know that I like to have like two of those, like those value load kind of sections. Yeah. So they're missing? Are they like, the frequently asked questions aren't really there, or the if this is perfect for me, isn't there?

Doris: Yeah, and And usually, they only have like one testimonial section, where we tend to kind of put in actually, like we spatter them across. So I think I find that in our long form ones we've put in, I think in two or three places, exactly. Not more than that. Because sometimes a testimonial is kinda like to speak to you, right listening to making the offer. And then the test. Another testimonial section is about what's in the officer, right? Or what they got out of what what they took out of the course or the product that they purchased. Right. So just having more than one place, but the way, I find that most of those templates are short form, or what we call short form, right, like a couple scrolls and one call to action.

Sara: I find that too. And then something that comes up too is when the clients come to me with one already purchased, I always ask them like, do you know how to make changes on here if we want to like duplicate a section so we can add in those things that are missing? If they you know, I highly recommend that they get a VA or someone to help them do it. And if not, like sometimes I can kind of manipulate the spacing to make it work. But sometimes I just really cannot. Yeah. So going back to that niching thing, when people are buying a template, is there something they should be looking forward to make sure they're buying from someone who, let's say is really thinking about conversion in mind when they're creating the template?

Doris: Well, I think that there aren't that many of us that actually do conversion, sales based design. That's really who I think you should buy from which, you know, that I'm not offering today, but I am creating some you know, I want you to do that for my clients. Yes, we're creating some soon, but I don't have them. I don't have them ready yet. But I would say that Yeah, you do have to look at where it's coming from. Because you and I talked about it right. Like it's really about, we're all just trying to kind of like serve our clients. And there are very few that actually are the One Stop Shop. There are some for sure. Right? But not everyone is and what I find is you don't like you might have a copywriter who says oh no, I have this for you as well. And I can help you with that too. But there's just something really lost in that kind of like, unless you're really multi what's called multi disciplinary. Yeah, that works. Yeah, that, like, unless you are actually that, then I don't see how you can do both. Like Really? 

Sara: Yeah. And I think the other thing is, I know he talks about it, though, for ourselves so that sometimes you and I have partners to each other because we're, you know, again, two partners for things. Yeah, it'd be different if I get you to come in and create some of those templates, let's say, for my client, and then I come in and create some kind of sales page template for copy for your clients, hundred percent, you know, like, so you want to be looking I think people who maybe have some of those partnerships already going on or they talk to that? Yes, yeah, you really know that you're getting something designed with conversion, like this conversion focus, not just like something really pretty, because it's pretty great. But we know, we need more than pretty to have Yeah, like, it just sells.

Doris: You know, you know, design and pretty is my number one, but it's not actually the same thing in these sales pages. Yeah, because in some cases, what's pretty to me, you know, might not be pretty to the target audience. And, and I've seen some that are kind of like, really, let's call it what I normally would call your key for a website. And they are like raking it in they're converting every, every time like, you know, like not every time someone lands on it, but at least they're getting the score higher. Yeah, yeah. So it's not really like, always about aesthetically polished, like, Instagram is free. 

Sara:  Like, we don't want to sacrifice our sales for the pretty

Doris: Yeah, so but, you know, like, there are those key things that we're looking to include in the sales page. And there's a reason why we do either a long form or short form, sometimes you can get away with the short form, it really depends on what it is that we're trying to get them to buy into. So I think it's a good time to ask you, what really is conversion design? Anyways? conversion design, I can say is, it's a purposeful website, you know, websites generally, are kind of like, an extension to our business card. Right? I meet you somewhere, or you heard about me, or I saw something somewhere, I go to your website to once a year legit to get a little bit more information, before I talk to you kind of thing, when a conversion sales page is its purpose is really to take the customer on a journey, and have them purchase at the end of it. And honestly, if they don't, they weren't meant to buy from you anyway. So it's kind of really elegant that way, right? 

Sara: Like, yeah, I feel like we're like, the sales pages like, yeah, they call you call people in and as they move through your page are moving through that journey. And by the end, they're gonna know, yes, they're in and this is for them or they're not. And that that we that is what we want. Right? Yeah. So, you know, you've looked at a lot of sales pages, obviously. So what are some of the biggest mistakes, or you call the missed opportunities? You see on these sales pages that could be hurting conversion.

Doris: I want to say it's maybe the use of color, color and contrast kind of thing. I'm sure you know, and design, there's like, there's psychology behind color. So you can actually kind of like, evoke emotion through the colors that we're using on the webpage. And the contrast is really talking about making sure that for example, the button pops out. Right, what is the like, this is a little bit more technical. But like, what is what is the hover color? Right, like, right? I have to one see the button, see the words on the button? And then if I hover over it, what happens? Right? Does it change color doesn't pop doesn't light up? Like? I mean, that's a bit much like I don't really go that far. I'm a bit conservative, all my designs. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's really that. I think that again, like this tendency ends up being to take whatever default was on the platform that they're doing this on?

Sara: Yeah, I think I think, um, I've noticed a lot of pages that have come through to me, like, let's say, to optimize for the copy. And they've brought like, you know, a sales page, they've already launched at some point, and it didn't do that. Great. And one of the things that I notice a lot is there's a lot of, like too much whitespace, right, like we want we like whitespace, but it's just like, it's like reading a big Google Doc, you know, and so, you start to glaze over as you're reading through it. I think that's sometimes like, part of the issue that's happening. 

Doris: Yeah. Um, yeah, the negative space I was that was gonna be my next point negative space, it applies kind of in both directions, right? Like, knowing that right balance between each fold, or let's call it a bounding box, right? So the bounding box is the text box that we kind of say, here's my paragraph. Yeah. And it's, you know, like, and you kind of oftentimes we have an image next to it or an icon next to it and so forth. And, and I, one of the big mistakes I noticed is how close like it's just really close to each other or just try to fill it in. So sometimes you need the breathing room, and sometimes you have too much right. So if there's nothing that carries me from so talking about having too much, is really kind of like how do I carry over from this Part Two, the next part, what's going to drive me to scroll? Huh? So, you know, like, we kind of like to have either a, what we call a directional cue. So sometimes it's an arrow or something like that, that kind of makes sure that when I'm in that fold and reading that copy that's there, I kind of know Oh, there's more. Or, in some case, in other cases, if I, you know, like, if it doesn't fit in the design for me to do that, I might make that fold just slightly smaller, and then the next folds peeping through at the bottom with another color block. Right. So then I kind of go Oh, yeah, there's more. It's not the footer,

Sara:  Like, if so you're saying that a lot of times, like people aren't really doing on their sales page. So that could be hurting people from continuing to kind of scroll down or be curious about what's next?

Doris: Yes, yeah. Because it's important like in in terms of the copy, like, whatever I'm reading at the time, I have to be focused on that. So putting too much and making that section too small is also not good. So that's where you kind of like making sure that every fold, I'm reading everything that I want, that you want me to read. And then I know that there's one.

Sara: I like that, you know, especially as a copywriter here, because I know that one of the big things I like to focus on is making sure that every headline is something that would make you stop and, and read that section, but also that you could scan that page. And as you're scanning the headlines, be able to see like what you're looking for. So I think that's where I can really see design playing such a big role there. Because it makes us like, help call attention to those sections. And they don't all look the same. Yeah. Anything else that you think are really sort of like the big mistakes or any other missed opportunities, we talked about? The font size and spacing, you talked about color, and then about a little bit about direction? Anything else that really stands out to you that you think like when you have a lead on sales page? Like smack you in the face? And you're like, no, stop?

Doris: Um, um, I don't know, I think sometimes it's the choice of images. Yeah. Again, like really understanding who your target audience is, and what is it that you're trying to convey? Right, most of the time, you and I, you, you and I are serving clients who either have a program that someone's going to go through or a DIY do like, workshop, I'm not sure. But it's really kind of like, you don't like we're trying to either better their business or better their life or better their something, right? So you want to have that imagery to kind of like the photos or the stock images that we choose.

Sara: To help give that feeling right?

Doris: Yeah. And I think that sometimes either the repeating the same ones that everybody's using, or, you know, like, or it's just not, I don't know, like not appropriate or something. I don't know what how sad. 

Sara: There's like a mismatch, right? between the feeling we've we've talked about that. Yeah, the other thing I know, that you and I have discussed and I've come to you for is the fact that it's so important when selling like let's say launching a course, that we give people mock ups, so they can see what sort of like behind the scenes like behind those closed doors, because, you know, we're often asked him to exchange quite a bit of money. In order for something that's really unknown. It's not like a one to one service. So having those mock ups, what do you think? What, like, what do you think of mock ups in general and the importance?

Doris: Yeah, I always like it. It's kind of like a iconography, right? Like, I love that type of stuff. And I'm a visual learner. I don't remember if you're a visual learner, Sarah, but like, I'm a visual learner. So sometimes, I don't tend to read everything that's written on the field speech.

Sara: Sorry, I'm definitely more of a reader. But I like I like the visuals. But I'm definitely reader first.

Doris: I like when I land on some sales pages, the ones that are targeted to me, I do tend to kind of scroll up and down. So maybe the first time I'm checking out how they signed it.

Sara: Makes sense.

Doris: Yeah. And then I'm looking for the section that I really want to know. Like, I tend to kind of say, hey, what are the packages? What are we getting? Right, right. And I think we all kind of know that, like, usually the offer, there's either one, two or three, right? Like when we kind of lay it out. And generally the middle one is the one that like, it's kind of like, this is the value deal, or this is the most popular option. Right? So I do tend to kind of like, I don't worry about the one on the on the left, like the least that's not that's not me. Yeah, another another kind of buyer same. So I look at the middle one, but sometimes actually do look at the one on the on the right, the one that the money, because, you know, like I want to know what what's that bonus, because the tendency is that you can get this really nice bonus. And it's limited. It's it's significantly more than the middle package. But but so much cheaper than maybe if you went direct, I don't know.

Sara: Like, yeah, I find there's often a good way to get like some one on one access, or at least like a really small group access to someone that you want to work with on those, like, let's say on that, like Final kind of, you know, option price option. Yeah. So I know I'm often intrigued or trying to make that work when I'm buying something because it's nice to get the opportunity to get like no connect with the people who designed the program generally, without I can have to invest in that, you know, one to one a really high ticket package.

Doris: Yeah, totally. But so that's where I go next. And then I kind of look at what what comes in it. Right? Hmm, I find that if that's missing, it frustrates me because usually the sales pages don't really come with like a hotline. Yeah. Right. Like, they don't come with a chat bot, really, because the purpose of the sales page is to just do that, right? Like, oh, I think one thing that we, we eat well, you and I both know this, and you should be talking to clients out of it. But a big difference between a website and a sales page is that there's no navigation, basically, up or down.

Sara: That's a big one being left on there. Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad you called that out. Because I always like to take that. But I do nothing else.

Doris: But that's why the you know, like, that's why I'm saying that. That's why the chat bots out there, right? Because that's really, the focus is just buy or don't buy, right like, and really, when someone doesn't buy doesn't mean they're not going to come back, they're going to come back to the sales page again, and read it again, and think about it and then come back again, like there's just, that's the whole point of not giving them any other option than buy or not buy, right like.

Sara: That said sometimes I mean, I do, I do see chat bots on, let's say, really, like definitely six figure launch sales page, like six figure sales pages, where you know that they're having multiple six figure or like million dollar launches. And it makes sense to me at that point, because they have the staff to keep up with them and actually be really active on them. So I can see why the amount of traffic they're driving out of they couldn't manage those questions through an inbox. But overall, I think for like most of us in our first good handful of launches, definitely not having the chat bot there because like, we don't want to click away really. But in that case, we probably also can't serve them enough. Mm hmm. It's It's not like we're gonna be sitting there all day.

Doris: Likely. I mean, I think that we solve that normally when, you know, like maybe in the octan. Right? Yeah. The tendency is the option has a call. You know, and then you have that call, and then send them through this sales page.

Sara: It's a call like a like a sales call. You mean or like a call to action?

Doris: Yeah, like little no a sales call, right? The initial kind of like, jump on the list, jump on the list, let's say the call is the is the carrot that we didn't go right. Yeah, like, you know, like book a 30 minute call with me. And then you're on my list. And then then once the when they do that call, and then they're automatically in our, in our sales funnel, right?

Sara: I've been kind of liking the process lately on sales pages, speaking about like having a sales call, where you actually have people apply, like book a call with you in order to get them into your program, if you're not looking to bring in like, big numbers, right? Yeah. Because I feel like there's something really personal about it. And I think, personally like as like a no solopreneur, let's call it being able to do that really helps you connect with people who are coming in, you know that that's a really great fit. And it feels really it feels more personable, like, right.

Doris: it does, but I think it depends on what the offer is, right? Yeah, it depends definitely, on the offer. If you're talking about a coaching program, where there's like 15 spots, or you're talking about a membership.

Sara: where you're gonna end a four or five figure investment, like not for like a 300 hour course

Doris: Exactly. Like especially and then we also have those like $37 offers, right that we still do sales pitches for that, for sure. And those offers $37 if you spend time, sorry,
Robert, a call for 37 bucks, like

Sara: The cart abandonment emails and the FAQ emails. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, so we went over some of those like mistakes and missed opportunities. Let's talk about some of your top, you know, design tips. I know, we covered some of them, but let's really go through them. Because I really want our listeners here to potentially be looking at their sales pages as they're listening. So maybe you're gonna pause this podcast and open up a sales page, so you can look at it. Well, Doris is talking and sharing some good tips.

Doris: Okay, we'll probably going to repeat what we just said. So I'll just kind of talk about like, top to bottom. Yeah. Right. So eliminating the navigation. Yeah, it is, you know, like, I think that that's again, like that's a big Miss where, you know, like, I think a lot of our clients kind of say, Oh, yes, but this is from me and my brand and it's from a website and so forth. It's Yeah, we're hosting it on your your hosting your website hosting, but we're not we're masking it. All. Right, because again, the purpose is to buy or not buy for sure. That's one the other other one and this there's still kind of like, contemplate it's still debatable on this one. But having an initial call to action, yeah. On the first bolt is actually kind of one of those things where more times than not that I have one, right yeah, some of my kind of like when I share it with you, too, like when I kind of mock something up before you've written I usually throw one in anyway. 

Sara: Yeah, I usually like to put them into for copywriting. So most the time

Doris: Yeah. It's it really is kind of like to be honest. You will have had a sales call with somebody and you kind of go you They're interested in signing up, right? So you some

Sara: people already warm, right? Like they're ready.

Doris: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So don't make them scroll like three folds before they get to the next button right? Like, I don't know, like, it's just I know, I know, I'd be annoyed. I was like, I just want to buy just the direct link, right. So put a call to action at the top. Again, we were talking about color. So making sure that if you're not in brand color, that you pick a color scheme, Mm hmm. For the sales page. And keep that consistent, right? Like we have different sections can have a background as a different color. So then also know what your button colors are going to be. And making sure that they stand out.

Sara: Yes, I love that. You call that out not changing on the button color. So it's like a really like, that's your button color. That's it. That pops out?

Doris: Yeah. And the only, like I said, like, it depends on on the contrast, right? Like, obviously, you know, like, I don't know, red button, hit hold white letters. read letters, you know, like, you can change it that way. But don't be Don't be doing the rainbow unless we're doing something for right. Like, again, like, like, similar to color is typefaces and fonts and font size? Yes. Right. Again, we we stick to it, we kind of have basically what do we have h1, h2, usually there's a paragraph one, maybe an h3 depends on how many I need, but I don't usually use much more than that. But they're very consistent, right? Like once you determine what content you've written, then I kind of determine like, obviously, I always have an h1 and h2 and a body type rate. But, but like if I needed another size, and then know that okay, this is the header is this typeface. And then the, maybe when we kind of list out what the contents of the program is, or what you get in the package, maybe that's a different header.

Sara: So would you say it's a great idea to like to let people sort of create let's call it like a font hierarchy. If they don't already have one. And like a brand kit, let's call it that they have, like they say, this is what I use for h1, this is what I use for h2. This is free. This is for paragraph this is like this is the font-weight, that type of thing. 

Doris: Yes, I was just gonna say thanks for bringing that up. Because you know, what, my my one go to for everything is that everybody needs a style guide. 

Sara: Yes, that will be another conversation we'll have to have.

Doris: God knows how many times and the you know, like, and a proper one, actually, not the simplified one. Because the simplified one is one page as your logo on it. It has your mean three fonts, maybe like maybe a fancy cursive and then you have your header and your body? Yeah. Right. And then that's it, and then doesn't tell you when to use it, when not to use it. Like that's just not enough, have a proper one done. Or do it yourself, just make sure you write it out. Maybe I'll give you a worksheet at the end of this that we can share.

Sara: Okay, cool. That would be great. And I'll put it in the URL, put it in the show notes. You know, speaking that was something I really took away from you that even when I was doing it myself before, you know I started hiring you to do it. For me. The that was the advice I've ever you'd given me was be really consistent. Like, I mean, I did end up having a brand guide eventually. But being consistent with those headings and those fonts across my sales pitch. Yeah, but even like all of my property, so that there was it felt seamless for people, right that like it didn't look completely different. They started recognizing this is a waste of stuff, look. So this is where my thing things are supposed to go. And I think that that's just like a huge step you can do.

Doris: Yeah, totally. And it's also okay, that enolate your brand color can be like five, five color palette, right? And yeah, and that you do a completely different color palette, you know, on the sales page, but it should be something that actually is complementary.

Sara: Right, right, because we did that for mine, right? Like, we extended my colors once I started creating more sales pages.

Doris: Yeah, yep. Just so that it's still kind of like isn't so weird. Like, it's not like we put fuchsia into your set, right? Like, we did mustard yellow was kind of like your accent one, right? Yeah. Like, it's things like that.

Sara: A proper rainbow. Okay, so you covered it. We've talked about font and direction, you're going to the page, where are we at now for any other things we should be looking at on our sales pages?

Doris: So just the right visuals and a nice balance of them? Right? You don't have to go to over the top. But I think that especially a sales page it is you know, like, I love the words you write Sarah, but like it's long, right? Like, it's a lot. Yeah, for sure. So we break it, we break it up with giving them visual cues through our bullet points, or checkmarks. Or we have this arrows or we have something like nice, just kind of like, carry me along on the nice little write down the page. 

Sara: Well, I like that you call that out. And I think that's one thing. You know, we've talked about when I've been writing that when I've written one pages is even using sometimes like not even just like bold or italics but using some like different color font sometimes or even like highlighting strips of text in there. So that it makes those longer sections not feel like it's like knocking people just like skimming them either. Yes. It's also kind of Yeah, slow down the eyes, right?

Doris: Yeah. It just kind of it will capture something's like, whoa, wait, what's that? Right? Like, that's really what it is.

Sara: What about mobile, like getting ready for mobile, then versus like desktop Do we design for one or the other need to be both equally? What do you what are your thoughts there?

Doris: Well, we all know that everyone's on their mobile. So it all has to be mobile friendly. Now I'm, I'm more I will tell you straight out, I'm more an apple person. So I'm going to talk to iPads. So iPads now tend to be more like browsers, like regular browsers versus your cell phone, which is actually a mobile code, right? Like, it's really it does convert. So I do tend to double check, even like I said, like, even when I go back to you, as a copywriter to potentially shorten the headline, sometimes, if in the end, even when I make the typeface smaller, that it's not taking up the whole screen. Right? I'm not designing for like the smallest iPhone, right? I do tend to actually design for for the larger one. But I think that in the end, I always kind of like, you know, like, whether I'm talking to you as as you know, the copywriter, my partner in this or to the client, like knowing who the target audience is, some some of the target audience are straight up always on the desktop. Like, that's where they're going to be where they shop.

Sara: Now, I'd like to call that out. Because I think that we talked about in another episode recently, but looking at metrics in general, across your business is important. And one of those are the analytics of who Where are people visiting your website from? So you can keep that in mind when you're designing pages, right?

Doris: Like I have a tendency, myself as a consumer, I have a tendency to shop for like, my clothes and my gifts and my books on my cell phone. Mm hmm. But if I was going to purchase a programmer membership, I'm on my desktop. I love that I'm totally opposite that. 

Sara: Yeah. It's probably because I get so many grades, I probably get so many emails to my inbox for courses, just because as a copywriter I love seeing other people are up to and I get like, Ooh, this is good. I'm gonna buy it. Okay, and the other thing I just wanted to the one last thing for design tips, I know that you had mentioned was about scrolling through the page, like having things like arrows, what are a few other little things we can make do to make sure that people's eyes are moving down the page. I know that you've we've put in like checkmarks before and some like some emojis before even anything else we can do with like, the background of sections, or what can we do?

Doris: Yeah, we like I do change the background sometimes. So sometimes it's the contrast and color to just kind of highlight a certain section, it really depends, like it really depends like, like, in some of my fancier ones, I actually have moving gifts. So currently moving objects that actually kind of carry over the fold. But that's really kind of like it's very dependent on the client's brand.

Sara: Yeah, we like I do change the background sometimes. So sometimes it's the contrast and color to just kind of highlight a certain section, it really depends, like it really depends like, like, in some of my fancier ones, I actually have moving gifts. So currently moving objects that actually kind of carry over the fold. But that's really kind of like it's very dependent on the client's brand.

Doris: I often say that it's really dependent on how big a launch you're doing. If this is a big like, six figure launch, if you're not hiring someone like me, plus someone like you, and then like, like a VA and an implementer know, like a project manager then like generally, that's who's who, like my clients are have like the whole gamut. Right? Yeah, not not to say that there have been times where you and I have kind of served to the client. And you know, like, on the occasion, I've done the tech. Yeah, yeah. But really, I I don't, I generally just do the design and give it to my try to make you break the rules. Yes, your own rules. It was your own. But I would say that it's very dependent on what the launch is going to be, like, how big the potential is for the actual product, because there's, it's like anything, right? Like, when we're when we're starting our own business, you know, like, you don't you don't get out of the gate and kind of like, spend, you know, like 50 grand on knocking, eating and, and and, you know, like at this full brand, it's usually the second round, right? Like, you've been establishing while you have, you know, like, you know what's going on, and now you're leveling up. That's usually the clients that I'm serving.

Sara: So they usually have like a proven offer something that at least even if it's proven, like 10 people bought it, it's proven, it's sold at some feedback. Yeah. And they're ready to let's say, take the next step to get more people in definitely

Doris: Definitely one of those things where it's not just them that saying this is needed in the world. It's been asked for and people are chomping at the bit, and you just really don't want to devalue your own brand by DIY. 

Sara: Yeah, yeah. And I want and I guess you want to like maximize the opportunities for conversions in there, right? percent. If you know that people are buying already, let's make it even more so. Yeah. So Doris, I'm gonna have everything of yours in the show notes so people can check out where they can hire you, and learn more about your services. Thank you so much for having this chat with me today on the launch playbook podcast. I love you being here.

Doris: Thank you for having me. I was so happy to be here. 

Sara: So now that you have dessert endorses design tips. My hope is that you'll use this information to optimize your sales page for conversions on your next launch, so that it helps your copy do its work. And if you don't want to do it yourself, because I know I sure don't check out the show notes so you can connect with Doris and get her help. Thanks for tuning in to the launch playbook podcast. If you want to get weekly launch secrets in your ears, I hope you'll hit subscribe on iTunes so you'll never miss an episode. Because who knows, it could reveal just the thing you've been looking forward to make your next launch a success. And be sure to leave a five star review in iTunes, telling me how this episode inspired your launch plans. Until next time, friends.

Keep putting your big ideas out into the world. I'm rooting for you.

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