The Secret P.I. Method To Interview Your Customers

 

Sara: I'm so excited to welcome Nicola More's launch copywriter to the launch playbook podcast today. Nicola and I know each other from the think tank mastermind that we are part of run by Kira hug and Rob Marsh and we met in there. And I have just been eating up all of her information she shares about interviews and customer research and how to do in a really fun way but also how to get like the juicy stuff that really matters. So welcome Nicola. And I'm gonna just start calling you, Nick, because that's what I usually call you to the podcast today. Thanks for joining me.

Nicola: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. My voice I'm pausing.

Sara: To tell us your story. And how did you end up as a launch copywriter?

Nicola: Yeah, so I am a large copyright, as you said, for creators and coaches. And I've worked as a copywriter for a couple of years now I started in 2018. Before that, I worked as a journalist writing real life features for national magazines and newspapers here in the UK. So I worked for a Press Agency, we wrote, literally for all of the national magazines and newspapers here. And we syndicated around the world as well. So it was sort of my job to find stories online, convinced people to speak out about them. And because it was for the magazines, it was often, you know, quite traumatic experiences that people have gone through and then had to go to court to you know, get the person convicted. So it was really having to get them to trust me and get them to speak out. So I did that for six years work to some quite heavy cases, really loved it. But then when I started doing copywriting on the side, I fell in love with it, and realized I was good at it. And just thought I would quit my job as a journalist and go all in as a copywriter. And here I am I went full time as a copywriter in February of this year. It's been a bit of a wild ride since.

Sara: Amazing what a cool backstory I love that you. Yeah, you really like investigating and getting people to trust you. And we're gonna get into that today. So I'm really excited. So we're both launch copywriters. And I know we've had the discussion before about the importance of research in our own zoom calls, or sometimes over like itdms re chat. But tell us here. Why do you think research is the key to a successful launch?

Nicola: think I feel like people hate it when I talk about research because it's just not sexy. But it's, I feel like it's my duty in this world to show people how to do it, make it sexy, and yet show how it can impact copy and launches. So I think a lot of people hate selling, you know, but selling is providing a service selling is solving problems for an audience. And by doing thorough and proper research, research into your audience into your business, you're going to learn where your audience is now basically, what problems they're dealing with them then where they want to be, you know, how do they want these problems to be solved? What are their goals. And so by learning that and sort of learning those facts, and having those in a hierarchy, which I'll explain later on, that's when you can position your product or service your program as the bridge between the problems that they've got now. And the goals. When doing the research have often you have you know the surface level problems, but you need to actually dig deeper and find out what the actual problem is. So, for example, I've got my notebook here, I use that to write down ideas and to do this, but actually what it's doing is increasing my productivity. And that's sort of the deep level problem that it's solving for me. And then with research as well, you know, people aren't going to buy your hair all the time people need to feel heard to listen to understood, it's not the root of many arguments, actually, that people don't feel listened to, and they take out other people, etc, etc. But so to make them feel that way, you need to use the same language that they're using. Show them that you get them using them, you know, phrases words, as a cute but you know, research is a really key way that you can pick up on a language that you can then swipe for your sales copy, whether it's a sales page or emails.

Sara: I love that you wouldn't tell that you mean, Nick, I totally think research is sexy. You really like and it's also the thing that like stops you from staring at like those blank Google Docs because you don't actually ever have to write from scratch right when you've done that research.

Nicola:  Exactly. Yeah, I think never write from scratch because I do so much research that it's there. For me, it's literally just swiping, you know what the customer is saying and just put it down and sort of a creative way and a framework that copyright use.

Sara: Exactly like I feel like I just like wrote a sales page the other week. And it was really just like, I already had the research, I already had the information down, it was just putting it through that framework of a sales page. And it like kind of writes itself. Now, like I know, that we put up we do all the things we do to as a copywriter, but in the end, like the information was there.

Nicola: Totally!

Sara: Were just like, have people know that they would go and, you know, do more research themselves?

Nicola: Exactly. I did the same thing. So I was wearing a copy of one of my ecommerce clients, she sells skincare really good skincare, actually, I've used it myself. And I was review mining and Amazon. And somebody said about their skin being turtle defense mode, you know, they suffer with inflammation. And I was like, boom, that's my headline, you know, just your skin and your skin in total defense mode.

Sara: I love it. Yeah. So that actually a great, it brings me to my next question with you. So there's a ton of ways to gather this voice of customer research. And some people focus on like copy stalking, or message mining or even like you said, like, looking at Amazon reviews is great one or testimonials, or Yelp, whatever you want, wherever you want to look, whatever you want to call it. I know that your number one tactic, though, is customer interviews. What do you wish everyone knew about the interview, because I feel like it's the thing that kind of freaks people out the most.

Nicola: Exactly, plan, that's the thing I want to share is that it doesn't have to be scary. And I know that's easy for me to say, because I've interviewed hundreds of people, I did it, as you know, for six years as a journalist, but it's just you having a conversation with your customer and end of the day. And that can be something really informal resume having a coffee chat together, it doesn't need to be seen as you know, this really scary thing. And that's why I try not to call them interviews, because when you think of an interview, there's two things that come to mind, you know, a job interview, or a police interview, and neither of those things are terrible. quite intense, quite stressful. So just call them a chat. And even when you're asking customers to speak to you don't call into a call in a chat. And that's sort of one of the easiest mindset tricks that I use, you know, just asking people if they're free to answer some questions. Because when as soon as you say the word interview, everybody freezes up and, you know, freaks people out. I think another thing I want people to know is to ask follow up questions, you know, make it a real conversation where it's flowing. It's not really stilted, where you're just following some set questions of a page. And it's good to have those as a base, but try and go deep with the questions, follow a follow up with them what they're saying. And that's where you're going to get to the real crux of the issues. I was actually interviewed a couple of weeks ago, and they were literally just not a police interview or a job interview. I think enough to confirm that everybody, it was all legit. But they were following like a list of questions. And they never dug deeper with me. And I remember thinking at the time, no, they could probably pull out some really deeper insights that they just prodded me and poked me a little bit more instead of, you know, sticking to this rigid list of questions that they've got together that are two things that want to share.

Sara: I love that. And I want to get into the other one a little bit further in our conversation today. But I'm gonna hold that thought in my head for a second. So interviewing, you know, sounds good. And especially as you are saying, you change it to a chat, because that actually feels like it takes a lot of pressure off. I'm thinking, even as the person doing the interviewing, when you say Chad, it just feels much more relaxing and not scary. And like, I don't have to show up super formal, I can just like have a conversation with people. But how do you find these people to interview? What strategies do you have to find out? Who should be asking?

Nicola: So I mean, a lot of the times, it depends really on what you're launching. And but let's go with a course for examples. So I always like to speak to clients that my passion customers that my client already has. And the reason that I do that is because I can find out why they chose my client, what makes them different in the marketplace. What makes them unique, makes them stand out, you know, did they have other choices that they sort of vetoed? Before going with my audience with my client, sorry? And then what problems did my client solve for them? Plus, you can also, and this is why I love to do and actually, when I mentioned this to one of my clients, they said that they never heard of this before. But I also like to interview people who haven't bought from my client. So maybe people on their email list that are really cold, haven't bought anything, haven't opened emails, and really get the insights is to, you know, to find out why and find out what's making them stop and pull back because they're obviously on the list for some some reason. So there's something that they've obviously liked in the past, but something stopping them from moving forward. And it's about finding really what beliefs what mindset patterns are happening that stopping them from moving forward. And the way that I approach people that occurred it called is I like to send out a survey, just asking a couple of questions. probably less than five just to keep it really short. Make sure that people actually do it. If it's too long. They're not gonna they're not gonna finish the survey but they're on the line. Question, I would give them the option of leaving that email address if they wanted to chat further, say for, you know, half an hour, 45 minutes. And I know that feels like a long time to, you know, to take from somebody. But I would say that's really a good amount of time to really probe deeper, dig deeper. So they're two of the ways I like to find people. So interview people that have bought from you, chat to people that haven't bought from you. And then can also go to other places where your audience is, whoever, that's Instagram, whether that's, you know, Facebook groups posting that, see if anybody is looking for a solution for a certain problem, or looking for a transformation that you can provide. And I'm sort of a bit hesitant to say that, you know, ask the people who are looking for a certain problem, because you don't want to assume that they have that problem. And that's sort of their main problem, you know, but yeah, I would love people that have a looking for transformation that you could provide with your service off course. 

Sara: And so why don't you want to if you have a certain problem is that because you're sort of just gonna end up confirming it through the interview, as opposed to finding out what else is actually happening there?

Nicola: Exactly. Yeah, I feel like you could go in with a bias because sometimes you might know that your product says, you know, solves a certain problem. But until you actually speak to people and find it, because yet they might have that problem. But that problem has to be pressing enough for them want to fork out money to buy it, you know, we've all got problems. You know, I can't think of anything off my head. But everybody has problems, there's only a few of the problems that we will actually strive to find a solution straight, yeah, actually spend good money on on trying to solve that problem. So yeah, you could look for somebody who doesn't have a lot of time in their hands, for example. But if they're not feeling that problem so badly that they want to solve it, then, you know, it's sort of a waste of time, because they're not going to buy from you to solve that problem.

Sara: Right? And then,I'm so curious about so people who don't buy, let's say, at the end of the launch, and maybe they've been cold, or they haven't been opening emails, do they actually like, do a lot of them say yes, the interviews, I'm kind of something that made me sort of nervous thinking like, Oh, they didn't buy, so well? Are they gonna spend this time chatting with me? Does it like doesn't happen very much. are the numbers kind of low? What do you expect with that? Or how do you kind of get over that nervousness of asking someone who didn't buy from you to tell you why.

Nicola: So in my experience, I've actually gotten pretty good results, where my clients launched a course that year, she relaunched it, she did it last year, as well. And we sent out a survey for people that didn't buy and had 64 responses, and mine fell to the floor, because I was like, Oh, my gosh, that's amazing. That's so good. So I would say, you know, don't expect loads of people to answer. You know, surveys are a tricky one. I think even getting like 10 to 15 responses is still really good. There's still enough to find a pattern, but don't expect a lot. But mean, you would be surprised, I think because I positioned the email with the survey n as really empowering to the audience making it sound like there's sort of no judgment and why they didn't buy, we just really wanted to find out why find out their opinion, everybody loves to give their opinion. And just really made it empowering for them kept the survey really short, I think we asked sort of a tick box of which option is the reason they didn't buy and then other in case it was something else. Then another question, asking them to explain a bit further. And then the goal of the course was giving them which I think was you know, to create their own skincare. So instead of buying this course, to create your skincare, how else we were doing that, just to really find out what also would be doing so then we could use that in the coffee, and sort of make the course you might know about option two, the other options that we're going for, which was things like googling and doing their own research, which is obviously really time consuming, but free. So yeah, and then the other question in terms of the mindset, I think, you know, it's like I said, before selling is solving a problem. It's a service. So people, like people want to give their opinions and help other people, I do believe there's a lot of good in the world. And so I think just remembering that will help with sending out a survey and even if nobody responds, you try to give a go. It's not the end of the world. Just try again, a different subject line, for example, in the email, but I mean, to be honest, I'm not really afraid of rejection. What can be the Genesis sort of hammered out of me?

Sara: That I like that you bring that up, though, but I could see that, you know, some of my clients I've talked to or just, you know, have these conversations in general, I know that it comes up that people don't even like seeing the unsubscribes right. So kind of putting out that as to people who didn't buy could maybe feel like nerve racking. But the truth is, I really don't think people are gonna say like, we didn't like you. Like, it's not really, you know, it's about the product or why they didn't buy and I think from what I'm hearing, you're saying that the more we can find that information, we can use it in a copy sort of like to bust those objections. Right.

Nicola: Exactly. And you know, we've never had a response of people saying that didn't like you. That was it. We offset we weren't given that as an option, but they didn't explore that as an input that another box. Yeah, exactly. On your email list, if they didn't like you, they would have gone already unsubscribed. Right? Exactly, they would have gone a long time ago. And it was actually surprising in the survey, there was quite well, in this survey responses, there was quite a few people that said, you know, we can apply the last year because of this reason, but actually, this year, when you relaunch it, I'm definitely going to sign up for I'm really excited, or I'm going to look at it. So it just shows that sometimes when people don't buy, it's just because they're not ready at that moment in time. And it's nothing to do with you. You know, everybody has stuff going on. So yeah, it was really interesting, actually.

Sara: And I've heard too, and I don't know if you've had this experience or not, but I've heard that when you ask people to sort of like to tell their opinion, and they become then actually more invested in your product, because they've had a say in it. Right. And it actually can help warm up that conversation for a sale down the road.

Nicola: Yeah, exactly. I think it just shows people as well that you care about them. People want to be cared about. And definitely even when I'm on websites, and people, you know, the survey link pops up and say, can you How was your experience today? I Oh, I wonder how it was. And it gives you that sort of feeling of validation, I guess which we probably gain from surveys. People want to know, their voice counts. Right? Exactly. Yeah. And that's important. It's showing that you care about them, you care about their journey. And that's good business at the end of the day.

Sara: Right? So once you get people to agree to an interview, how do you get them to actually open up other things other than not going to interview, and then she heard that useful information that will actually make a difference in your launch copy.

Nicola: So if you'd asked me this, now, as a journalist, my answer would have been very different. So now what I would do is, I like to do them standing up, because it's sort of like opens up your your body, you can like breathe easier. Smile, be open, be friendly, you know, really makes a difference. And when you smile, it you know, it comes out in your voice, especially if we're doing a zoom call. But if you're chatting over the phone, that they'll be able to hear that in your voice. But I always start off with small talk. And that seems like such a simple idea. But it really helps people to loosen up. So I'm based in England, most of the people I talk to are in America or Canada, like yourself. So I always ask them, you know, where are they based? What's it like? Just, you know, five minutes really getting them to open up talking about something they're familiar with? You know, if I can hear a dog in the background, I mentioned it, we're a dog Do you have, Oh, I love dogs. Again, get them to trust you. They're just opening up bit by bit, anything to, you know, get them to sort of loosen up. And then I like to start off the interview with asking questions sort of about them. So this sounds ridiculous. But there is a reason for it. You know, what computer do you use? What's your favorite cup of coffee or drink? You know, what's your favorite hot drink? Where do you go to to get that, because when you get that sort of information, hopefully, they'll be a pattern with your customer that you can use that in your coffee, just make you feel more personalized, because I love reading on a website when someone mentioned Starbucks, because I always go to Starbucks. So it makes me feel like you know, that person gets me. Yeah, so I thought the questions like that. And then like I said before, I'll have sort of 10 to 20 questions that I want to get through. But as I'm asking them those questions, that's why I sort of start off small. Before I get into like the nitty gritty, you know, feelings and all of that. I keep making sure that ask follow up questions. So you know, why do you think that is? What does that mean to you? How does that affect your life open, quite open ended questions that mean that they have to give an answer to, and just keep going and sort of prodding them to open up when I was a journalist, I had to ask people about their sex lives. And that thankfully, you would be surprised that people shared Honestly, I feel like I could write a book. But one thing that I like to use is a trick on marriage. And it's actually a hostage negotiator technique. It's from the FBI, it's in Chris Voss, his book never split the difference, which is a very good book, I recommend everybody read it. And what mirroring is, is basically you repeat the last three words of somebody's sentence all at the key three words in the sentence, and you just repeat it back to them with an inflection at the end. So it's a question. And that will get them to open up further, and that it takes a bit of practice, but it's sort of another way of, you know, asking why without actually asking the word Why? Because sometimes that can make people come up. So doing the marine help. So let's say for example, somebody said that they wanted to earn a million pounds, or dollars, I say, a million dollars, and they would explain that further. And then I'd say, Okay, why, if you weren't a million dollars, how would that make you feel? What would you do with that? Those are the kind of questions that you can use to keep the conversation flowing and get them to open up further and dig past those surface level answers that are probably going to give and then put put words in their mouths as some of what they say, you know, it seems like you feel this and then they will either agree or disagree, and then they should expand their answer a little bit more pace. 

Sara: I love those tricks. You mentioned all those tiny details that you find out like the Starbucks or computer they're using? How do we know which ones to use in our coffee?

Nicola: I use the ones that it has a pattern. So I always mentioned about MacBooks. Because it seems that most people I speak to have a MacBook or an iPhone. And it's really about putting them in places where it makes sense. So I can't think of a specific Oh, actually, yeah, I can't. So I think on my website, I have it as you know, you can slam down your MacBook Pro slam shut your MacBook Pro, and leave the carpet to me something like that. So those tiny little nuances that just make give us a bit more specific detail. So if you're writing the copy, and you use the word iPhone, or coffee or tea, you can just go a bit more specific with that, and actually go for something that they're drinking, or is it a chai latte, for example. And it helps when you're setting a scene so I was writing copy about pillar one says go to Bali. And we spoke about, you know, the bowls of food, they have a camera that's maybe bowls, matcha teas, that kind of thing, things that they would drink in Bali, you know, cocktails and made it really specific and stuff.

Sara: So that they can really visualize what like and like feel themselves as part of that.

Nicola: Exactly. Yeah, it's about making them visualize it. And again, making them sort of feel like that they're understood as well. Hmm.

Sara: So Nick, you have a super secret PII method to interviewing? Will you tell us more about this? And then how we can steal some of your techniques for our own customer interviews?

Nicola: Yeah, sure. So this method actually came about because I am obsessed with true crime and murder novels. You know, as a journalist, I wrote about crime into the law of victims of crime. So I've always had this sort of fascination with it, you'll find me in the documentary section in Netflix all the time. And so the reason I call this method and it's the PA method for conversion, clarity, and connection, and the reason I call it the PA method is because private investigators have a certain way to get to the truth. You know, and that's the same way with research and copywriting. When you're researching a product or a business, you want to get to the truth of what this product is solving for the audience and how it's going to bridge that gap. So the main three sections of the PR method are, like I mentioned before, remain objective, it's important to go into the you know, the chats of the customers and do any research with sort of an open mind, you know, don't get stuck on thinking that this is the problem if the if the person you're speaking to is actually saying it's something else, because then you're trying to push the conversation one way. And obviously, when detectives think they know who the killer is, and then look for evidence that proves that rather than looking for what the evidence proves, that's when you know, it can lead to false conclusions, and things like that. So remain objective, and then probe for information. And I spoke about this. So ask the follow up questions, ask why is all about looking for the emotion, the stories and the language that you can put into the copy that's going to really help sell it and really make it come alive? You know, stories tell. And so I really like to find stories and examples I can use in my own copy. And then the final technique is, is mirroring. So again, that's where we get people to trust us, and helps get that really important information, then we also use the mirroring and the copy as well. So when you've got all of your research, I like to have a big Google Doc. So I'll have it in a Google spreadsheet, I'll have a section for pain points, goals, hesitations, and then I go through it. And I really pick out any patterns that come up coming up, and I put them into a hierarchy. So I've got the top three of each section. And then when you've got that they're basically the main important points that you need to mention. And you know which one you need to mention first, also the one that was mentioned the most by the audience. And that's your message hierarchy. And then when you've got that, you can then go back to the copy, pick out any phrases, quotes, things that are really interesting that the audience have said, like I mentioned before about the skin be in total defense mode. That was a phrase I just lifted and put that into the headline. And that's mirroring, mirroring. So you're just literally copying and pasting what they say.

Sara: Those are some really juicy copywriting techniques. So I hope that if you know you've been taking notes, or you pause and go back and listen to this, because Nick has just given you like what you need to write your next sales page. The strategies to do so if we interview like this using these methods and techniques, Nick, what kind of results can we really expect it for investing our time in these interviews?

Nicola: Oh, 100% more connection with the audience more sales, you're going to make people feel heard listened and seem to. I think it just showed that not only is it showing them that you care about them and their opinions, but it's also going to be reflected into the coffee as well because you'll be speaking that language, you really get into the heart of the actual problems that they're solving and then how your port is going to solve that. So yeah, the main two I think more sales, more connection and more clarity as well. A lot of people come to me because they don't know what their message is. So this is the way to get clarity and sort of the right message that you should be heading towards in the copy. And I got really excited about this. I'm talking so fast because I'm just so excited.

Sara: I love it. I love you bring this up. This is how this experience ones. And I like to tell the story that I had a client who was using the words imposter syndrome to describe like, how her people were feeling on her website. And she wasn't getting any, like really people signing up for her phone calls or in her free calls. And when we she went into into interviews, and then did this like type of research, she found that the literally nobody was using that word except for other coaches. Like that's not how they describe their problem. You know, it's they're using words like clarity and pivot and crossroads. And then when we went and actually use that language on the website, things changing, people started signing up. And I think it speaks to that power of like when we go and listen, and we have these conversations that there are direct results and impact to that, like people actually then feel seen and heard, which is what we all want. Right?

Nicola: Exactly. I've had that same experience with that actual phrase as well. I think we've spoken about this. 

Sara: So we chatted about this before, I think it's a concept with the imposter syndrome.

Nicola: And this is why you should talk to people that haven't bought from you because once people enter your world, they'll start picking up your language and your lingo. So they probably would start using the phrase imposter syndrome. After working with that coach, because they've heard the music, it would be in the emails, like sort of talking to them, and and maybe the ones ones, but that's why it's important speak to people that haven't bought from you, because that's when you can pick up the actual language that they're using, and the language you need to use to attract them to you.

Sara: Right, because it's how they're feeling before they get to you. Right when they're sort of like when they're actually mired in that problem on when they're on their own. Exactly. Yeah. Amazing. So Nick, is there anything else that you wish that people knew about interviewing or interviewing when it comes to launching,

Nicola: I think just do more than you think I usually do probably six to eight interviews for a typical launch, sometimes more. But definitely booking more than you think that you need. Because people do and will cancel, you know, life is busy. And this probably would be the lowest priority for that. And I'm just going to be honest, and put that out there. So yeah, book more than you need, and expect to do at least six to eight, so probably going to spend a good part of a day doing them, there's going to be so worth it. And then what I do is I use a website called otter, and that's a transcription service, I think I paid $9 a month for it. And that gives me a lot of hours of transcription time. And then you can just put it through that in an automated transcription. And instead of having to listen back through the whole interview, you can go to the transcription, we pick up lingo, the only time that I tend to listen back to the interview, just to find out where they're getting excited. And you know, where they're really lighting up when they talk about things. And that's usually their goals. So that's the only reason why I listen back to the interview. Yeah, just to see whenever you're lighting up and getting excited, because then you can reflect that back in your coffee.

Sara: So I appreciate that you showed us and told sorry, told us how to actually use those transcripts in those interviews, because that would feel like a lot to go back and listen to for time. So it's really amazing. And just one more question, Nick, before we jump off our time are today at this amazing chat. Do you think people need to be interviewing and also doing that other kind of kind of copy research or message mining looking testimonials? You think they go together? in unison?

Nicola: Yeah, I do everything. In fact, I've just had a six figure launch my client, I literally went through so much research, I can't even tell you, it was days, you know, is going through Amazon reviews going through, you know, Reddit and Facebook groups and but it definitely all goes together. And I like to do the interviews first. Because then you can sort of use the other stuff to sort of compliment the interviews. But it definitely goes together. And it's going to give you a big people spreadsheet of copy that you can use in in your copy and phrases you can lift and ideas and I think my favorite thing that I get is when I'm reading back through a transcript of an interview, or mining an Amazon and I get like the lightbulb flash you probably experienced that yourself. Get that flash of Oh, that's a headline Oh, that's a pain point that can go into you know, bullet point list. And it's geek out about it, you know, because it's hoping you either you know, the more you get in involved in sort of that audience, the better you're going to understand them so you can't do too much research. I think sometimes it means knowing when to stop because it lasts for a while.

Sara: And then like that you said like the more we know about them. Really really the more time we spend in there and the more we read and learn and have these conversations with them the more we can actually help the people that we want to offer this course or program to right because we actually understand exactly how they're feeling.

Nicola: Exactly and if you've offered the course or program before we dive into service, go back through or and I know it's an interview but go back through your any complaints, emails dm see what's coming up for people because you want to anywhere that you can improve their customer service. Make it better for them again, show them that you care. So So yeah, wherever your customers are, go there.

Sara: Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Nick, I really appreciate you diving into your super secret PII method and getting us all really jazzed about interviewing. I know, I feel more excited about it now after this conversation, and I will be dropping everything about where to find Nick, in the show notes. And I think Nick, you said you were gonna create something special for the audience, too, right?

Nicola: Yeah. So this means I have to do it now. 

Sara: it's official, it's on the podcast?

Nicola: No, I'm saying out loud. It's going to manifest now. So I am actually going to create a document of questions that you can ask so that when you're doing the chats with your customers, you're not going in completely blind, whether it you know, works for your customers or for your clients, customers, you're not going in blind, you do have sort of a guide that you can use while you're on the call. So, so yeah, that will be available.

Sara: Thank you. And that will be in the show notes too. And it'll be created by then because Nick will have written it and manifest it for thank you so much for joining us today on the launch playbook podcast. I really appreciate.

Nicola: Thank you so much for having me. It's been so much fun.