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Sustainable Visibility® For Launching & Beyond with Mai-kee Tsang

TW: This episode contains mention of sexual assault.

Launching requires us to put our ideas and ourselves out into the world. For lots of folks, myself included, it can be a really vulnerable thing that takes a lot of energy or perhaps fear, or causes us to retreat afterwards to regroup.

Join me as I chat with Mai-kee Tsang to talk about how we can focus on consistent visibility that honors ourselves while still allowing us to connect to humans we want to connect with as part of our launch.

In this episode, Mai-Kee and I talked about...
  • What Sustainable Visibility® actually means
  • Why everyone's visibility strategy is different
  • How to put boundaries into place for social media
  • Ways to honour your capacity to show up online
  • Reasons why consistency on social may be difficult 
  • What happened when one of Mai-kee's IG posts went mini-viral
  • How to avoid that post-launch energy crash
  • The different types of visibility moves you can make
  • What to do during your pre-launch periods

...and much, much more

Things mentioned in this episode

Learn more about Mai-kee Tsang at https://maikeetsang.com or join the waitlist for her Sustainable Visibility® Incubator https://maikeetsang.com/svi-waitlist

The Launch Playbook Club: https://www.saravartanian.com/launch-playbook

Learn more about Mai-Kee Tsang

Mai-kee Tsang is the Founder of the Sustainable Visibility® Movement, Podcast Guesting Strategist & Host of the Quiet Rebels Podcast. She helps underestimated & underrepresented women in business to be consensually seen as they become more visible to share their message, so they can grow their impact-fuelled businesses on their terms for the long haul.

Coming soon: Read the full transcript so you don't miss a thing 

Mai - Kee: Whether it's a VIP day, or whether it's my six month program, or something else, they almost always like 90% of the time they are vetted through an application. So I received an application the other day, you know, to work with me. And it's very, it was very clear that the person didn't actually know me as a person, they probably heard what I do, but not me as a person. Because there's a question, why do you want to work with making and then they didn't really do much, but we give them a second chance. So I had my assistant reach out, oh, you know, unfortunately, we won't be able to kind of like, follow through with a call based on the answers that you provided us. But we're more than happy to reschedule for you, if you could please, you know, provide a bit more detail in your application. And we're happy to work with that. And Nope, zero, nothing. So that saved myself from putting myself in a potentially compromising position, possibility that someone can just like, take advantage and walk all over me because I shut down, basically. So I know what to do to prevent that. And for me, that means betting through application.

You're listening to the launch playbook podcast, the weekly podcast for service based business owners to discover the starts, stops and tools of transformation that go into launching their online offers. I'm your host, Sara Vartanian. And if you want to launch your ideas into the world faster, with more success and less burnout, well, friend, consider this show your secret playbook to get you there.

I know I'm not alone feeling like to meet my business goals, I need to be everywhere all the time, even when you focus on one social media channel, like Instagram, are so many ways in which we can choose to show up. And the fact for myself that I don't like to spread myself over too many platforms, isn't actually because I'm so disciplined, but more of a matter of self preservation too much. And it easily consumes my energy. And in fact, visibility is the thing I personally struggle with the most, for a lot of reasons, some of them because I'm an introvert, and my energy is limited for socialization. Some because I find joy in other aspects of my business more some because as a person with a larger body, I'm self conscious. And I'm learning to navigate the fear that comes with putting myself out there. And I also just came off a live launch of the launch playbook club, where I showed up consistently on Instagram and did a live workshop for a few weeks straight. And so if you launch before, you already know that putting something that you care about deeply into the world is pretty vulnerable, which is why I actually booked a few days holiday with my family to recoup my energy after my launch. And now this week, I'm meeting with my team to make promotion plans for the rest of the year. And at the time of this recording, were sitting just a few weeks into the second half of the year. So perhaps you too might be thinking about your goals and how you might need to show up to reach them. That's why the timing of today's guest really couldn't be any better. In this episode I'm joined by make a saying the founder of the sustainable visibility movement, podcast guesting strategist and host of the quiet rebels podcast make hay helps under estimated and underrepresented women in business to be consensually seen, as they become more visible to share their message so they can grow their impact fuel businesses on their terms for the long haul. Make it I'm so very glad you're here. This feels extra special given our history, which I'll get into a little bit later. But first, will you tell us about yourself and how you came to start this sustainable visibility movement?

Mai-Kee: Absolutely. And I realized I just totally cut you off. I think this is my time. And maybe. But honestly, it's a pleasure to be here with you, Sarah. So thank you so much for so much for having me. And I'd be honored to share why the sustainable visibility movement even came to be. And I realized Now when I say it's a bit of a tongue twister. But I have to be honest with you that it actually came about because I was really frustrated. And actually, frankly, quite disappointed. Because when I started noticing more and more conversations that just happen out in the open about the durability. It was very forceful, and to degree almost dismissive. For a lot of people who they want to be visible, but there's something holding them back. And when someone actually presents a form of resistance, the advice I keep seeing over and over again is like oh, you just need to kind of like you know, silence your imposter complex. You just need to put yourself out there anyway, jump before you're ready. And you know, just Just do it. Oh, yes, yes. To hearing that, and I really appreciate the thing that you shared, you know, round your own struggles with it ability because I also have my own struggles and everybody has their own version of it. And one of my biggest struggles is the fact that I actually see visibility through the lens of trauma. And I'm actually training right now to be satisfied. In trauma sensitive leadership, because visibility can actually be very triggering on its own. And because of that, I felt that all of this advice is actually really harmful. It's like, I can't just put myself out there if I genuinely feel unsafe to be seen right now. And so I've had to do a lot of work behind the scenes with my own therapist, for example, and just like just determining different ways that I can actually craft my own veil of safety. So I actually prioritize safety first and strategy. Second, and I think the majority of the advice out there is actually, like, almost totally disregarding that idea of safety. Because what do people say? They say, you're playing it safe, and they say it as if it's a bad thing. But when people say it to me, I'm like, you damn right, I'm done playing it safe. I'm not gonna put myself in an unsafe situation. Because the thing is, I don't think a lot of people actually think far enough ahead around the consequences that happen, if you're showing up prematurely before you're psychologically ready, because that's what causes that shrinking feeling, wanting to hide and shrink and retreat back into your cave. And that's what, that's what happened, basically. And that's what creates that sense of inconsistency when it comes to being visible.

Sara: There's so much I want to unpack with you today from this and very excited to dive in. So first, before we do, can we just start by digging into exactly what sustainable visibility means to you. And so that we can all myself, the folks listening can be on the same page when talking about visibility?

Mai-Kee: Absolutely. So in a nutshell, sustainable visibility is being able to show up consistently on your own terms. And when I say consistently, I don't mean you have to be on constantly because I think those terms can be kind of used interchangeably. But when I say consistently, I mean showing up when you feel when you feel good, and having a plan in place when you don't want to show up. So I have two different types of will actually the several different types. But for the sake of simplicity, think about it this way, we have active visibility work and automated visibility work. So active visibility is when you are physically showing up. It's like turning on your camera during the Insta stories, it's things like that, or doing a podcast interview like this, this is pretty active. But there are things that you can also have that you know, pre written and batch that you kind of like drip out on those days when you just don't want to show up at all. So you basically have that balance in place. So you're actually consistently showing up for your audience. But you don't have to be constantly on.

Sara: I love that having that plan in place. And I hope I have a question for you a little bit later in the interview to talk about a little bit about that planning aspect. But I love that idea of having like things ready to go, what kind of things do you have ready to go, like for those kind of days when it's not time for active visibility.

Mai-Kee: So mine would be emails, maybe also, my Instagram posts, sometimes I'll be extremely honest, my idea of consistency is how potent my content. So my idea of consistency is very different from a lot of people, because I think a lot of people's like consistency means three times a week on Instagram. And for me, it's like, nope. Sometimes I show up once a week or once every two weeks. So I know to the outside world, it may seem that make it really flaky. She's really inconsistent. But the thing is, when I do come out with something, it's something that's very potent and very intentional. And the thing is, my audience knows to expect that from me because I have released a big TV story on igtv video, where I talked about the fact I'm unsubscribing from this urgency culture, because I'm not going to show up just for the sake of showing that I will show up when I mean to. Yes, very promising. That's the difference.

Sara: Yeah. Well, I really, like apprec appreciate that about you and how you talk about that. Because I do think I feel like it's also similar to how you shifted away from strategy like that, you know, it's tasty first as opposed to strategy first, because so much is really around like consistency like three times a week as an you know, and there's that, you know, gaining followers, but I feel like you've shifted that so now it's around like your your goals are not around, not the you don't want to stick in, can you keep humans into your world and things like that. But the shift is more around like that content and like really your same potent or really purposeful content that really connects with people is what sounds like to me and not just content for the sake of content as well as the sake of doing.

Mai-Kee: exactly. And I've actually had a situation happened in the second quarter of this year. And that's when one of my content pieces actually went mini viral on Instagram is the most I've ever had in regards to engagement. And this was around the escalation of the Asian hate crimes incident the annonce incident in particular, and I'm not going to divulge details about that too much but I will say about the context of my post because there was a lot of emphasis that people are saying that oh yeah we we value di which is diversity. Equity and Inclusion. And then I just simply, I challenged that a little I was like, Okay, so those of you who claim to, you know, incorporate do practices, does that also include Asians? And then that just blew up. And I was like, Okay, I did not expect this because I actually spoke very openly about the fact that, for example, on a summit or on a podcast, or something, where I see just one Asian is almost feels like, Oh, I should be grateful to at least one. But I actually said, but I'm not grateful. I'm really disappointed. And that seems to really speak to people because a lot of Asians in the comments who were like, yeah, you know, I agree. And, you know, and then we're all kind of banding together, not against, but just to raise a point. Many other people in the comments who didn't identify as Asian, and they were like, oh, okay, we are listening. And as grateful as I am, that that post really portal of people together, I'll be completely honest, that really sapped my capacity, because I had hundreds of DMS coming into my inbox. And I was like, Oh, my. And the thing is, I never respond for the sake of responding to just to get it out of the way either. So that's why again, I had to unsubscribe from the sense of urgency, and then make it very clear that whenever I don't respond to someone, it's not, it's got nothing to do with them. I'm just protecting my capacity. And they deserve to have a well thought out response to any message that they send to me and I respond back with.

Sara: I have a lot, I have a lot that and so when this post went mini viral, were you expecting that? Had you been able to plan for that or not expected?

Mai-Kee: No, it was the first time it happened. And I was like, Oh, okay. And I realized, from that point on, I was like, Okay, I do encourage them a lot. But when it goes viral, I noticed that, okay, my capacity is sapped, because like yourself, I'm also an introvert. So my energy is already very limited on its own. So that's why around that time, at home, in my home life, I had to retreat a lot. And I had to say to my family constantly for a few weeks, I was like, I'm introverted. I'm interpreting, which means, which means they're both. Yeah. Yeah, so I didn't plan for that. And so that's why, and it gave me a good insight into, okay, this is what I had the capacity for. So I don't have the capacity for and so that's why I've had to be a lot more mindful with how I respond. Because at the time, I could respond pretty much the same day that people messaged me. But after that circumstance, I was like, Okay, if people want to respond to me, they absolutely can. But I'm not going to make any promises that are applying within the same 24 hours. Sometimes it can be up to a week. And I always, I never apologize for it either. I express how grateful I am for someone to say for example, say if someone messaged me, and I respond A week later, I would say I'm so grateful, by the way, you know, for you reaching out and for your grace, for a response. And so based on what you said, and then respond to the query, basically.

Sara: I love that you don't apologize for her to showing up and responding and being you know, part of being on social do not apologizing for how you need to be. I think, I think with the sad truth is urgency culture, as you're talking about, oftentimes, we feel that need, there's that that pressure to like respond right away and feel like kind of apologetic if we don't, but it's actually just sometimes who we are, who we are, we don't always have to, I think putting ourselves out there and making a post on social media doesn't mean that we're necessarily also opening up that we can respond to all the comments that sometimes come right away.

Mai-Kee: Absolutely. And there just comes a time where we, where our business has gotten to a point where we physically can't respond to everything within a given time frame. That's why we have teams and that's why we have our boundaries in place. And boundaries is a huge part of sustainable visibility as well, because up until then, I didn't have a boundary, I did not say anything about not being able to respond to messages. But then I had to do that I GTV to share that fact, and to also share the fact like, Look, it's got nothing to do with you, I wouldn't be angry or, you know, upset or annoyed or or anything like that. It's just because I'm protecting my boundaries, and you deserve to receive a response, you know, we're full intention on you. And then my audience seems to agree. And I think because I'm very open about these things that they really understand and also indirectly gives them permission for themselves to do the same thing.

Sara: I think this is the perfect place to if we could dig into a little bit more that approach you take, which is really different. So this idea of putting safety and consent, right up there or even first before strategy. Can we talk a little bit more about what like what that means and why that matters for showing up consistently.

Mai-Kee: Absolutely. So the way I think about it is this, if you had the opportunity of a lifetime that arrived in your inbox, where I don't know, if you wanted to be featured on a certain podcast or a certain show or a publication, the question would always be like, are you ready for that? And I mean, ready in two ways. Ready? In regards to your business systems? Is your like, say, if you had a lead magnet? Is your system, like set up for that? Is there a landing page? Is there a form? Is there a welcome sequence? Is there an offer that's connected to that? Is that already, first and foremost? So that's like, like, on the physical level? And on a psychological level is like, are you actually ready to be seen by that many people? Do you have these kind of like, boundaries in place? Should that get out of hand? Do you have a team to support you? In case it gets too much for you? And unless someone is extremely confident, yes, I have all of that, then that obviously means that there's work to do, because I'm not ready to be seen by like millions of people. Definitely not. Several 100. Yeah, maybe, but definitely not like, beyond that, basically. And so when I talk about, you know, being sustainable in your visibility, is being able to sustain it like this in the title. Like, can you sustain it? That's the question. And if you can't, then Okay, then that's something to do that. And I do want to emphasize the difference between exposure and being seen, because these are terms that are also used pretty interchangeably, especially for I've noticed some Disability Services, they will say, oh, get more exposure, get more exposure. And I would like to point out the fact that exposure, it's rooted in violation. Yeah. So I am not surprised if someone has no, I don't want more exposure. I know my business kind of needs it. But I don't want to be exposed. Because think of tabloid magazine, they say celebrity x, Secrets Exposed. And that's exactly what you're saying. Exactly. Exactly. And no one wants to be exposed people wants to be seen and seeing means that you have provided consent for it to happen.

Sara: And where does the trauma piece come into this? Because I know you're saying that you're doing ground? I think there's what's the phrase that you use to describe the trauma and trauma sensitive leadership? And where does the trauma come into the visibility piece? Like how does that relate, connect?

Mai-Kee: So I have like I, of course, I will not name names, but I have people either speak to me, or they have worked with me with clients inside of my incubator. And they have told me various scenarios that have happened in their lives, where they were seen before they were ready. And it caused a lot of damage, especially in their personal lives. So for example, I will also use myself as a guinea pig here as well. And so okay, if I, if I use myself as an example, in my past, I have experienced multiple accounts of sexual abuse. And as a result of that, I'm extremely vigilant when it comes to men, not all men, but and because of that, I have to have safety procedures in place, where if there is a man that comes into my space, without my consent, that I will have, like a procedure that will actually keep them at a distance, or remove them entirely. So for example, if someone messaged me on Facebook Messenger, I did not approve their request. But I do know that there are click farms and things like that. So sometimes people can actually buy friends, because there are people who have messaged me before. And I know, there is no way I would have accepted the request, because I only accept requests with mutual friends. And I've checked out their stuff. And I would have said, Yes, that's the only time. So if someone reaches out to me, and they, they have expressed things other in intimate and inappropriate nature before, and I feel really unsafe. So it's like, okay, no, I'm going to block you. I don't owe you anything. You reached out to me without my consent, because I know I didn't accept your friend request. So that's something that triggers me. And it makes me want to shrink. And actually, it was during a launch that this happened last year in 2020. So there's inappropriate of an intimate nature message I wanted to shrink. And I knew that was because I haven't, I have a dark past with my, my abuses. And so that's why in my incubator is a women's only space because it's very vulnerable work. And I personally wouldn't feel safe facilitating, you know, with men in the group, even if they are one of humans, because I've had men as clients. That's great. That again, it depends which capacity is so in my six months, you know, incubator program. That's a long time and we do deep work and as a facilitator, as the leader of that group. I cannot be in a position where I need to compromise that my sense of safety every single time. 

Sara: thank you for, for sharing that with us. And talking around the boundaries that you put in place as specifically in the thick of the work that you're doing, to allow yourself to show up in a safe way, not just like through your messages, but also in your, in your own program as well. I think when we hear those stories, I mean, at least when I, when I hear what that for me, it really makes me think about how I can do set more of those boundaries in place for my own business too, right. And like, it's like a bit of a permission slip to say like, it's okay to do these things, to say no, or to put up boundaries or to block things, protect myself, more and more, I appreciate that. I always appreciate how so willing you are to share your stories.

Mai-Kee: I have been in my soul. And I will say again, I do still work with men. But again, it depends on which kind of offer it is. So for example, if it's a VIP day, I've had amazing male clients, and I really love working with them. And like, I know that, you know, I'm able to do that in that particular container. And I will say that another thing that I've done in my business, is the fact that for anyone to work with me in an intimate capacity, whether it's a VIP day, or whether it's my six month program, or something else, they almost always I 90% of the time they are vetted through an application. So I received an application the other day, you know, to work with me. And it's very, it was very clear that the person didn't actually know me as a person, they probably heard what I do, but not me as a person. Because there was a question, why do you want to work with Mary Kay, and then they didn't really do much, but we give them a second chance. So I had my assistant reach out, oh, you know, unfortunately, we won't be able to kind of like follow through with a call based on the answers that you provided us. But we're more than happy to reschedule for you, if you could please, you know, provide a bit more detail in your application. And we're happy to work with that. And Nope, zero nothing. So that saves myself from putting myself in a potentially compromising position. Because I know like from my therapist, that I have a certain self preservation technique where I stay quiet when I'm in a when I feel very unsafe. So if that happened, then obviously that opens up possibility that someone can just like take advantage of the situation, and walk all over me because I shut down basically. So because I'm extremely aware of how I operate in certain situations with certain people with certain characteristics, then I then I know what to do to prevent that. And for me, that means betting through application.

Sara: I haven't heard of like the use of applications being described like that before. Usually it's just around for people to talk about using it to like find out beautiful people's budgets and things like that before the sales call. And I love how you are using it I'm and I'm and I don't know, we know exactly what's on it. I know that I've filled it out to work with you before I don't remember all the things is on it. But I love how you're using it for you as well for you not just to make the sale, right, but it's for you to ensure that this is a good fit that you can support this person and that you feel like you're in the right space as well to support them say for you.

Mai-Kee: Yeah, thank you for acknowledging that. Because when I really think about it, yeah, not a lot of people I know use applications. For a from a safety perspective, they do do it from a good fit perspective, he has to make sure to have sales calls with people who would be a potential fit, and they just want to have a chat. But for me is that and also, again, is reinforcing this this sense of safety in my own business. Because I know ultimately, that if I breach my own boundaries, that really impacts how I show up for my clients and for my customers inside of my programs. And so it actually really impacts them. Because there have been situations when my own boundaries were breached, or there was something that I really didn't expect to happen. Like, for example, the the Asian hate crimes, like when it was really like at the top of the news, it was extremely overwhelming. And it was very, is extremely upsetting. Because I saw the victims as my family because of, you know, Asian. So, like that really impacted me. And that was a time where I actually had to shut down. Because I spoke to my mentors. I spoke to my team, we rescheduled a call for my clients. And I really don't like kind of like saying no, I really don't like backing out on something that I said I do because I really like to keep to my word, but I just physically wasn't able to. And because I know that happens to me because I'm a very highly sensitive person as well. So I feel the weight of the world as if it's like a department open nerve. So like one single word, one single picture, one single video is enough to kind of put me in that place. And because I'm aware, so much of how things impact me, I have to have the things in place for me to continue operating my business. Because if I didn't, then I would be very inconsistent with how I showed up for my paying clients, especially let let alone my audience. So if I'm really here to serve, then I definitely need to serve myself. And for everybody who's listening to this right now, it is not selfish to think for yourself, it is not selfish to think of you know what stay for you. Because ultimately, when you think of yourself first, that way, you are able to help the people that you said you'd help. And if we don't do that at all, that's what's going to lead us to that burnout.

Sara: I can see how not being not supporting ourselves and putting ourselves first in a caring way for our own self would really affect how we could show up in our business and own our personal life as well. And as you're talking around, you know, highly sensitive person, I can relate to that a lot, because I have, I have to consume news in a very specific way. Because it burns me out, it makes me cry, it makes me emotional in this, this has been, you know, pretty heavy past two years in the news and in the world. And it's something even my partner and I have had to talk about because he would like to talk about the news all the time with me. And I like having those conversations. And I think they're important conversations, to have what's going on, but I can't do it all the time. Because I will carry it around with me all day long. And it'll affect everything and how I feel and then I'll won't be able to work and write and do the things that I'm supposed to do. So we actually sort of have purposeful times that we talk about it like, he doesn't bring it up before bed. Because that's something sometimes you know, we get we get into bed, and he'd want to like talk about something he read and I'm like, I can't now like now's the time, I have to sort of like shut down and do relaxing routine things and, and not bring that up because he could talk about it and feel you know, and then have a good conversation, go to sleep. Whereas I would stay there till four in the morning thinking about it, and reading all the things. So I appreciate that you said about that as well about just taking on things that are happening in the world. And how do we also manage that and how that health effects is showing up? I feel is is kind of the great place to say share with the listeners how I first actually met you and worked with you. So I actually hired me Kay for a podcast VIP day, almost a year ago now? I'd say yes. Because literally I say in about three weeks time it would have been Yes, it was. And I think at the time I really didn't know like what led me to want to work with her other than hearing amazing things but her through Robin Kira and think tank which is part of my mastermind and a bunch of other great copywriters I heard who had also I believe had to be a few days with you. What I didn't know is what I could share, or what I could talk about on podcasting opportunities or media opportunities and make him much earlier in our conversation around Are you ready for when things show up at your door like to talk about things in Are you prepared for them? I really wasn't. And so I just wanted to share a couple things because I really truly loved our day together and, and a year later, I want to share a few things that really stuck with me. And I think they relate today's conversation and one is that you really listened. And that you put aside space and our time together really just to hear all those narratives and questions and stories that are running through my head that I had been running through alone in my head, right? Like, should I share this? And like is this important than should I talk about this and like, some of them were things that made me cry, I cried talking to you. So made me laugh. Some made me smile, some were just okay. And I shared them all with you. And you sat there and listened for me. And then you helped me. And I think about this one a lot, because I've talked about this a lot. So you helped me practice telling the story of how I ended up leaving teaching to go full time on my business. And while I'm not going to go into that story right now, it was a hard story to tell. And I'll just say that involves my mom passing away. And you helped me get ready to share it. I remember that we practicing it over and over again and talking about it. And I've since now told it dozens of times I've told it on podcasts. I've told it you know when I've been doing speaking opportunities and having that space to practice it with you has helped me figure out what parts that I want to share. I feel okay sharing and it helps me tell it without also dissolving into a mess of tears and feeling like when I get off that conversation that I now need to go basically get into bed for a while I can have that conversation still move through my day. So I just really want to thank you for that. And I want to share that with the listeners my experience of working with you as well

Mai-Kee: that warms my heart and soul so much and to think that it was pretty much a year ago that that happened and you still remember it so so well. Yeah, I'm just I was really, really, really grateful that you're open to sharing, you know, some very intimate parts of your life with me. And I'm so glad that you made, we're not made your peace with it. But you've, you've been able to navigate through it without it stopping you. And you're getting to choose how much you choose to share, which on whichever platform that you're choosing to share it on. Feels lovely working with you. And I'm so glad that we've like reconnected and

Sara: Today's episode is brought to you by the launch playbook club. It's a place for service based business owners who want to launch a course membership or group offer, and are tired of trying to figure out all on their own. With weekly copy critiques and strategy calls for personal feedback, access to tech Roadblock, busting q&a sessions, monthly training around six figure launch strategies, and templates for all your launch copy needs. The launch playbook club is your roadmap to accelerate the success of your next launch, without burning out, become a member of the launch playbook club at www dot Sara vartanian.com slash launch dash playbook.

So can we talk a little bit more about what happens? I know you mentioned a bit earlier in our conversation. But if we jumped with a strategy for being visible, without actually preparing ourselves, what kind of things can happen.

Mai-Kee: I would say that a lot of shutting down, there is a lot of temporary success. Because if you implement the strategy, and it works, but you're not there for the after effect, then again, it kind of starts breaking off the the impact of the strategy. And I think again, there's a lot of focus on strategy and it is required to get wrong, I just think it comes secondary to what you are currently capable of and what you currently have the capacity to handle. Because I think of visibility as a capacity aeroplane. So when you get an aeroplane, you don't just get in it. And then it goes straight up in the air. Right? It needs a long runway to get to that point of liftoff. Right, it doesn't just go vertically upwards. That'd be very strange. Yeah, so it doesn't go that awkward, there is a long runway of hundreds, if not 1000s of meters that an aeroplane needs to run on before it takes lift off. And then when you're in the air, that's the journey. That's the visibility strategy. But then when you come down, again, an aeroplane doesn't just go straight in the air and go straight down vertically. It also had a landing runway. And I think people don't account for both stretches of time in preparation for doing a strategy. And also the come down that happens afterwards. So think about jet lag, right? Some of us get a really, like I get it, I get really bad jetlag whenever I go to America, because the timezone difference is very big, compared to where I am in the UK. And so it takes us a couple of days to come climatized to that journey. But people don't give themselves that time. And because they keep pushing, pushing, pushing that work their capacity levels, they completely paint like they go to zero in the minus, basically, because they just haven't accounted for that time before and after, not just during. So in essence, if you're not ready, and you don't have the capacity for and you don't have the boundaries in place, nor are you reinforcing those boundaries. That is what causes the inconsistency. That's what creates that sense of use. So yourself, Sarah, that you have to take a holiday off the ledge, right? It's because you're more visible, then you're then you normally have capacity for and unless you've freed up capacity elsewhere in your life, you're running beyond zero. That's what creates that need or vacation. And you know, creates that sense of shrinkage. If the buy Oh, crap I just launched but now I don't want to run my program because I'm exhausted. That's so common. In the last face.

Sara: Yeah. So this really makes me think of a lot of my one to one clients members. And myself, as I mentioned earlier, that we put a lot of effort into our launch, right, and then a few things happen. So sometimes we look at the numbers afterwards. And we can see that you know, really reach those goals. We need to spend more time growing our audience and connecting with the people we want to work with, but then experience our launch. We have that kind of crash afterwards. What do you wish that everyone knew about that? And like, how can we avoid that? How can we, I guess be more visible also between our launches. So we don't just show up and say like, Hi, I'm ready to sell. But that we also feel that we have this capacity and this plan to show up all the time. That's the consistent part. 

Mai-Kee: I really wish people worked on beforehand was their capacity. And I don't just mean time because there are so many different types. But just for the sake of simplicity, let's just say time and energy, so we have a finite amount of hours in a day. That's a given, but also how much certain tasks take up X amount of energy because for example In my own life, audio like this, it doesn't take that much crafty because I love having conversations. But being on video, that's a different story. And at the time of this recording, I'm also right now very self conscious of how I look. And the reason why is because I am having this outbreak of a rash on my face, and it comes and goes, and it's been like this for nearly six weeks now. And I am normally very fortunate to have quite a quite clear skin. So this really has thrown me off. And also because I do have memories that come and flashback because when I was a teenager, when this used to happen, I would actually have people say to me, what's wrong with your faith? Not? Are you okay? is what's wrong with your faith. And someone recently said that to me, and it's like, wow. So it kind of makes me feel smaller than I already do. And because of that, I've had to compensate for my lack of video visibility for other things, such as social media posts, such as podcast interviews, and talking to people one on one on zoom, who I'm actually comfortable with, that, when it comes to kind of like showing up on video a lot. I don't have the capacity for that right now. And so that's what I mean, like capacity is very fluid based on what's happening in your life. And I think that willingness to look into, the fluidity of it is going to be really important. And when it comes to launching, instead of thinking of how many days your cart is open for, whether it's five days, seven days, 14 days, I want you to imagine that your launch has a much bigger cart open period, not just when they can buy, but when they become aware of you. So it's just like padding on extra time before and after. and allowing you to show up on your terms each and every week that that is happening. Because doing it all in one go just during that two week period or less, is what really causes that crash, because too much too soon. So it needs to be this gradual buildup. And in order for that to happen, you need to think about it. So my own launches, there that the runway is pretty long. And like sometimes I have my cart open for four weeks, I do go a bit harder around the time when when applications are starting to close, for example. But before that, I give myself a lot of padding. Because if I'm rushed, then I'm going to come across as desperate, I'm going to come across as tired. And I'm going to make decisions based on what I want instead of what is right for my potential client. And so for me to not get into that state, I need a lot of the time before and after. So that's what I would advise just kind of becoming aware of the fluidity of your capacity and how that shifts in a given season. Like for the women in the audience listening right now, taking into account your menstrual cycle. That's also another thing because your energy ebbs and flows on different weeks of the month, the moon cycles, if you're into that, that's also another thing to take into account as well. So just kind of like if there's one piece of advice I would share for anyone who's listening is just like be willing to just become aware of your own capacity and how that shifts.

Sara: So I hear I hear that from you for this whole I think that the thread going through this whole conversation today is really around that tuning in deeply to ourselves. Absolutely. Listening to ourselves. And so I have a question for you. And I'm wondering here, how do we reconnect to our visibility goals that we might have, if we have found ourselves shutting down and not showing up,

Mai-Kee: I would ask yourself, if this goal only to show others or to show myself. So for example, one of my clients inside of my sustainable visibility program, she had a lot of external success. But it did cause burnout at the very beginning. And then she did several launches throughout the program. And the financial goal may not have always reached what she wanted. But she was so at peace with her launch. She was happy, she was showing up. And she didn't feel rushed. And she was just she was just really honoring her internal success measures.

Sara: I feel like there's been a shift over the past year or so. And I don't know if you've noticed it as well, too. Or maybe I'm just more in tune to it now. But I feel like there's been a lot of people really shifting some of those measures away from just the monetary, which I know we want to have our business. We want to make money and make sales. But I feel like there's more shift towards other things as metrics. And I am pretty here for that. I love that. And that's what I encourage with my members too is like what what are the other goals that you have? Like? Is it putting it out into the world? Is it connecting with more people? Is it bringing in like, in my most recent launch, we welcome three new members and I was really happy with that. Like, I had a goal of just welcoming I had I was hoping to welcome two people to be honest, I hadn't actually officially launched should have been all beta launch. But really I wanted to talk but in line a little bit for with myself as I wanted to show up and talk about it, I wanted to I had a hot seat, I wanted to invite people in and look at their sales pages. And I wanted to have conversations. And so so many of my goals for that launch, were really around actually a little bit for me, like, what I wanted to do what I wanted to try and not around the monetary piece. And I think so many people are also thinking of other metrics as well.

Mai-Kee: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm really glad that you honored that, you know, because I also had three people come into my program. And the thing is, the less people or rather the sorry, the fewer people there are in your program, the more the more attention you can give them to give them an extraordinary experience with you. And I literally at the time is recording just wrapped up my first cohort of my six month mentorship program. And the thing is, all of them love the experience, like I get, I was able to give them so much one on one attention to really understand, because they were all at different stages of business, but they all reached their own version of what it meant to be sustainably profitable. And of course, there's always going to be ongoing work to do on that, right. But what I love is that we managed to really prioritize mental health, like that was an ongoing conversation in the entire program. And I don't think there's a lot of emphasis on that, you know, in a business program, right. But the fact is that they're all they're all coming back for a second round, because they love the experience so much. And also they're willing to leave testimonials like glowing testimonials as well. If I let my ego get in the way, like, Oh, my God, I only had three people, then that would really interfere with the experience that I could have provided for them. So that's why I think that this acknowledgement of what it means to be successful inside us, like how do we show up as people? I think that's just as important as the external success measures. And as a business owner, I do agree, of course, like, you know, making money is very important. Absolutely. But it's definitely not the end all be all.

Sara: it's definitely not. And I wanted to say as well, like, yeah, for my membership site, we welcome three new people. I know we had some people because the year or program really so some people are still the tail end of the years, we're so right now I think we have about 80 people and all together, but the three are new, and some people are staying or moving on as well. But they don't like most of my calls, we have maybe two to three people along maybe one two person sometimes. So I have loved that experience of I have really got to know their business. And I think it's made me realize, too, that I want to keep the program smaller, because I love the intimacy of that I think that works for my capacity. And I love those conversations, I think, you know, like, I know that you also like one to one conversations, or small group conversations. So I think originally had this vision of, you know, big numbers, lots of people at scale. And now I'm like, No, actually, I want to change that. And I think that's something too that we can do as we're launching our things and putting offers out there is the open to again, tuning into ourselves, and listening to ourselves around what's happening and allowing ourselves to change that vision a little bit as well on those goals. So I know we're going to wrap up here about now but I wanted to ask, can you please share with the folks at home how we can learn more about you and potentially working with you? 

Mai-Kee: Yes, I would love to. And thank you so much for just being willing to have these conversations. By the way, Sarah, I so so appreciate you for that for anyone who would love to stay connected. There are several different ways but I'll just put two, just for the sake of simplicity. So number one, if you are interested in working with me for the long term on your sustainable visibility style, I would love to invite you to join my waitlist for my sustainable visibility incubator. And I said to Sarah in the green room, I believe it was in the greenroom that this is actually my first interview since it's become a officially registered trademark as well. And the reason why I'm emphasizing that now is not because of the whole our inner circle thing. That is the fact that I knew that when I started this movement that this movement was here to stay. And this is a declaration of that. So if you are a underestimated women in business, who would identify as an introvert, you are empathic in nature, and you no longer want to just put yourself out there that you want to be truly seen heard and understood on your terms. I would love to invite you to join the waitlist at a time of this recording. The applications for early bird will be opening in August 2021 for the program doesn't officially start until November 2021. So if it's your first time hearing of me and you want to peruse my content to see if I'm potential fit for you, that's all good too. So if you want to join that waitlist all you need to do is go to make a fan.com forward slash SBI dash waitlist and I'll put that link in the show notes along with Sarah will pop the link. I'll be there for you to check out for sure. Thank you and I do want to also put I put a little Asterix on this waitlist page around the word women by women, I mean anyone who identifies or, and or has had lived experiences as a woman because I'm, I'm aware that there are non binary folks in, you know audiences around us, people who are gender fluid and who are just non conforming or gender. So if you identify, you know, in any way with any of these things, then you are also welcome to join. So, on the waitlist, but if you just want to peruse my content, and just really get to know me through what I've shared so far, on the times I do show, you can find me the most active on Instagram, that's at mc eysenck, ma i k e. Ds AG,

Sara: may signal. Thank you so much for joining me today my case, it was really such a pleasure. I've been hoping to have you on this podcast for a while I'm sorry, I'm glad it all We were able to make it happen. And I'm also excited because some people who are listening maybe members of the one play book club, and if they are, they'll find that you're also a guest expert in there this summer at talking around how we can move visibility.

So I'm very excited about that. So thank you again for joining me. This has been such a great conversation. Thank you again so much for having me.

Thanks for tuning in to the launch playbook podcast. If you want to get weekly launch secrets in your ears. I hope you'll hit subscribe on iTunes so you'll never miss an episode. Because who knows? It could reveal just the thing you've been looking for to make your next launch a success. And be sure to leave a five star review on iTunes telling me how this episode inspired your launch plans. Until next time, keep putting your big ideas out into the world. I'm rooting for you


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