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Relationship-Based Sales Strategies with Dr. Nadia Brown

Dr. Nadia Brown explains what it means to have authentic sales conversations and shares the systems every online business owner needs to put in place to actually enjoy the sales process while closing high-ticket sales. 


In this episode, we talked about...

  •  challenges business owners face when it comes to sales
  • what to do when sales feel icky
  •  how to tell if you have a good close rate on your sales calls
  •  what are relationship-based sales
  •  systems to put in place for more authentic sales conversations

...and much, much more

Things mentioned in this episode

Learn more about Dr. Nadia Brown

Dr. Nadia Brown holds a doctoral degree in Organizational Leadership and is passionate about helping women become more authentic, confident leaders who take charge of their careers.

She is a sales strategist, consultant, trainer, and founder of The Doyenne Agency. A sales agency that works with business owners, companies, and corporations to multiply revenue and awaken the consistent closer within your sales team using the Consistent Sales Method™. Nadia helps women learn to play the career game in business to advance their careers and professions.

When it comes to sales, women come to her timid and shaky about going after the money – they leave her strategic, strong, emboldened, and most importantly, paid.

Nadia brings over fifteen years of leadership experience, powerful conversations, achieving goals, and respect for people to develop a comprehensive sales process to increase closing rates and satisfy client retention. As a result, Nadia’s clients have seen tremendous results, such as raising their rates, decreasing their refund requests, and doubling or tripling their annual revenues, including helping clients increase their yearly revenue by 800%.

Connect with her in IG: https://www.instagram.com/iamdrnadia/

Say Hi on FB: https://www.facebook.com/TheDrNadia/

Watch this episode in YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/DoyenneLeadership1

Check out her Website: https://thedoyenneagency.com/

Read the full transcript so you don't miss a thing

Dr.Nadia: Especially those of us that have service based businesses that are really tied, you know, coaching or consulting or things like that. It can feel very personal. When people say no, and sometimes people are just not kind, and they're No. And so while no matter how many times I can say it's not personal, it's not about you is whatever is going on with them. It still feels very personal sometimes. And so that's why self care is such a big piece of it, you know, as well, when you're doing yielding your business. And I'm like, think about how you're going to take care of yourself, and replenish yourself on those days. When you do get the nose are those weeks when it's like, what does anyone know how to spell the word? Yes, right.

You're listening to the launch playbook podcast, the weekly podcast for service based business owners to discover the starts, stops and tools, the transformation that go into launching their online offers. I'm your host, Sara Vartanian. And if you want to launch your ideas into the world faster, with more success and less burnout. Well, friend, consider this show your secret playbook to get you there.

Sara: Today, I'm chatting with Dr. Nadia Brown, founder of the Doyon agency all about relationship based sales, something I can't wait to get into, because I haven't heard that around the internet. What that means in authentic sales conversations. But I know for myself, I'm still not quite clear what that is. And maybe you are too dear listeners. So this is gonna be a great episode to help you not only in your launches, but also closing know your sales, we use any proposals and just having better conversations with the people you love working with. So welcome, Nadia.

Dr. Nadia: Thank you. So glad to be here.

Sara: My gosh, I'm so excited about this conversation. I know we were talking a little bit before we started recording around what we're going to get into today. And I know I get to go back and take notes after. So I always feel so lucky when I'm doing these interviews because I'm like I have a firsthand hour with somebody who is so smart and industry. I'm so lucky.

Dr. Nadia: Oh yes.

Sara: My own strategy hour. So first things first optionality. How did you end up founding a sales agency?

Dr. Nadia: Why don't you ask, I always share, I was the least likely person to lead a sales agency. When I first left my corporate job and launched into this foray of entrepreneurship. I was really focused on leadership, doing leadership training, and coaching or whatever the things that I was doing with women at that time. But I sucked at sales, I'm just gonna be honest, it was terrible. It was so bad. I don't even know how I survived as many years I've been bad at it. But for years, for a couple years, I was able to kind of maneuver and just make it do what I do. And eventually it all caught up with me, there was way more going out than there was coming in. And I had to make a decision. And it was not yet you either go back and just get a job and give it his all up. Or you figure out how to do the sales piece.

Obviously, I'm still here. So I figured out how to do the sales case. But something interesting happened along the way during that journey. And that was several years to like it was not I don't know why I feel like I'm a pretty smart girl. But it really this sales thing was limiting me for a very long time. One of the things that happened is not only did I learn how to sell, I learned how to sell in a way that felt great to Nadia, but I started training other people. So there were people out there who knew that I had a different secret around sales, and that was that I could actually help women. And so it took me about a year of waffling and kind of hiding out and people different people like Nadia, why don't you help other women like you're not the only woman that leading a business that had this challenge with sales help us? And it wasn't until I had a conversation honestly, with my husband. I don't know about you, but I hate it when he right. Oh, Italy called me out.

Sara: in Hard agree Hard agree.

Dr. Nadia: And he's just like, so 90, let me get this straight. You're excited about helping people with sales? And I was like, yes, people are reaching out to you, although you're doing nothing to tell them that this is even an option. And I was like yes and are willing to pay you to do this. And I was like yeah, like it's so amazing. And he's like, and you're not doing it because you're afraid of a fit. Like what? Like, help me understand what is happening right now. And I was just like, well when you put it like that, that this sounds kind of crazy. So maybe I should make some different choices.
Here we go. That's how it came to be.

Sara:  I love that story so much. I like it. I mean, You know I'm a launch copywriter and I, we spent so much time on the research and the validation, you got it all right there for you. You just have to like, okay, fine, I'll do it.

Dr. Nadia: This is like, Okay, we'll do a launch agency, and we'll do some sales stuff. And I have no idea what its gonna look like. And yet, we figured it out.

Sara: And so once you actually decided, Okay, I'm gonna go on, and I'm going to do this, what happened from there? And how long have you been doing that for?

Dr. Nadia: So we actually made that transition five years ago, it actually, I almost hate to admit this. But part of it was kind of easy. It wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it was. But did have to make some some decisions. So one decision was I stopped the coaching programs that I was doing at the time, because I really, I felt like I needed the focus. And if I had this out, I would take it, I don't always recommend that, because obviously, you're running a business and I was just, I totally just cut off an arm of revenue. But in that moment, and based on where I was, mentally, I just felt like that was the best decision, it was also motivated, like, get your life together and make some quicker decisions. We also started with just doing duck for you sales support. Part, one of the gaps that I noticed, and I feel is that women, business owners are out here, they're doing their thing, a lot of us start our businesses because we want to help that person, or we want to do this thing, or we see this gap, we don't always have our initial focus on the money we can make. That's usually it's on the list somewhere for supplements, iron is usually not our number one, we'd use it don't start a business, I want to go into this business making a kajillion dollars. It's usually somewhere later, it's like, oh, yeah, we can make money doing this, get into this, do that. And so we started doing sales support for business owners. And basically what that looked like was literally, you're doing your thing from a marketing messaging being the face. And then when people started started to enter your pipeline. So a lot of times that was when they filled out some type of form, maybe to schedule a strategy session, then that's where my agency stepped in and picked up the ball. And it was an experiment, so I wasn't 100% sure how to price it how to structure how to do so a lot of times, it was just saying, we're going to try this, I didn't even know what, Suzy we're gonna try this. And you know, eventually we kind of found our groove. But it was amazing, because 18 months after so we started in June of 2017. We have formally with the agency and I, you know, hung up my shingle and I was like, alright, people, I'm doing this. And by the end of 2018, we've done over a million dollars in sales like i Wow, it was insane. I was like, wait, what, how? Why, of course, my clients are like, Heck yeah, call Nadia, just just call her just call her pay her a call her. So that was that was how it started.

Sara: That's amazing. And now since then you do more than just the done for you. That's just a branch, right? You've expanded yeah?

Dr. Nadia: There's no part of so we get through that. And you know, I'm doing my thing, and I'm having a blast. But I'm a teacher at heart. And I was like, I don't start teaching people I'm doing something has got to happen inside of me. So we started adding training programs. And we also just realized that, for us to really do a great job. And it took all make sense for our company to do sales support, businesses had to be at a certain level, your program had to be a certain investment, like it just had to be that way. We trust me, we've been through the whole trial and error. It was, you know, to make it a win win win all the way around, it was like we just had to fit those parameters in place. But then that left a whole lot of people out in the cold it also they could still learn from my approach and like, you know, talking about relationships and, and just how to get to that point where they could then hire us to support them. So that was when we started doing more training. And we've added more training even now to just be able to work with those business owners and I love training. I love strategy. I totally geek out on that, though. It's a win win for me. I'm happy, they're happy. It's all good.

Sara: That's amazing. I love how that you dove in and saw what was working. And then just were adapting as you went to what people needed. And now also like, that fills your pipeline too, right? You're saying like they come in they they've started making the money during this thing so they can hire you. Yeah. And then where do you like to spend most of your time these days?

Dr. Nadia: It's almost about 5050. Actually, we're like thirds, and I'm also I'm having to come out of the shadows a little bit more. It was really easy to fall into. I'm a sales person. But I'm also easy to hide, especially like events, you're in the back of the room or you're some remote location. It's kind of sticky. So where you talk to people, you get them enrolled, and so especially Now that we're working with a different type of entrepreneur, we're I'm doing, you know, I'm being more visible, you know, so those types of things was causing me to be you have to split my time between, am I doing a training? Or are we promoting a training? Am I just really focused on marketing stuff? Because not even we still need you to show up from that? You know? And then are you doing any types of strategy or supporting the team? Like I've been really working to get more support in that area? So we could serve more people? Because at one point, you know, there's only one, Nadia and there's only so much of her to go around. So yeah, but we have to have that in place. 

Sara: So you do what you teach your clients to teach your team? So let's pull back a little bit. I thought we should get everyone on the same page. What does it mean by relationship based sales?

Dr. Nadia: Oh, glad you asked. Because I see this term, and then I have an experience. And I'm like, well, that's not how I would have defined what that looks like. So for me it relationship based sales has an actual focus on the relationship, I feel that a lot of times, it's easy to fall into the trap of treating our interactions with prospects or leaves as very transactional. And you'll find sometimes in sales, the focus is heavily on getting the credit card or getting the sale, which I get, we're having a sales conversation, we revenue, a sales, I have a business, I get all of that. But sometimes it's to a fault, where now people are treated, and they feel it, that they are just another number. And if they are not ready, or in a position or whatever to make that particular investment at that time, they're almost cast aside as it you know, you're just whatever. It's so my philosophy around sales is that we need to focus on those relationships. We need to not treat those interactions as transactions, but really treat them as opportunities to start building a relationship, whether that person says yes, and we get to work with them now, or they're like not yet. Let me think about it or get things in place, or whatever the case may be, then we have systems to support us and continue to build and nurture that relationship. Because I have seen where people have come back years with an s layer. Sonance was not quick, they've come back and they're like, Okay, now I'm ready. And what happens if you made that person feel like they were inconsequential, because they could not take your desired action in that very moment, they wouldn't have come back. But when you make people feel seen, and you actually listen to them, and they know it, then they realize you have their best interests at heart. And that goes a long way and building that relationship. And it does often equate to sales, whether they buy or they refer someone else. They're like, No, you gotta go talk to this company, because they're gonna look out for you, they're gonna take care of you. And if they can't help you, they'll point you in the right direction. And that is something that I don't see enough of, I think in sales.

Sara: My gosh, I'm just couldn't save for the years peace. I have been that person. And as you're talking, it really strikes me why that was. And it's because you're right, like, I wasn't ready when I had the call with them. I got information. And but they still were in my you know, they still wait for them to reach out to me a really lovely way. They're still in my world, they would still sort of cheer me on or say, Oh, I thought about you. And you might like this article or funny this thing. One of the time when I came back to one of them, I came back to you two years later and spent a few $1,000 I think I just wasn't ready before. But when I was ready, the I was ready, right? person and I was like, let's go.

Dr. Nadia: Yes. And you love those clothes. You're like.

Sara: I'm never going to person. I was messaging her. And I was like, I know you're not opening enrollment to like February. But it was like this was just December like right before Christmas the year ago. And I was like, What can we get in? Like, can I just like pay? Can I get on the roll? Can I students watch the spot spots the eye that weird to get in? But you're so true. Like, I know, I've experienced that for sure. And it's but then I've also experienced the opposite where I'm like, this is really doesn't feel very good. And actually, I think I actually dodged something here. Like, I'm glad that I.

Dr. Nadia: I'm glad I've added a moment of hesitation or I'm glad that buzzword you know, easily accessible in that moment or whatever it could be like yeah, and I wouldn't say that it's probably good.

Sara:  It's absolutely the speaking of that, then what do you think it is about sales that go icky or make people feel icky?

Dr. Nadia: I think one of the things is we've all probably had a bad experience, like just about everyone I've talked to was like, Oh my gosh, like you said, I've been on the receiving end of it. And I think sales overall as a profession doesn't necessarily have the greatest read. So we bring all of that into a point where you realize that we have to do sales like crap, I don't want to be that person. And that's the baggage that we bring in and and it brings up the IQ because it's like, I know I need to do this in order to build my business. But I don't want to be that salesperson and whatever memory comes to mind, it's usually not that we usually don't first they got a great experience we've had a treat man. And so that in a lot of that is what happens. It just brings all of that of the fear of rejection. I don't want to be rejected that brings it wrap and we don't want to deal with, you know, it's just so yeah, we rather, We'd rather go post on social media or you know, anything else, other than have sales conversations, because why would I do that. And I will also add, especially those of us that have service based businesses that are really tied, you know, coaching or consulting or things like that, it can feel very personal. When people say no, and sometimes people are just not kind and they're No. And so while no matter how many times I can say it's not personal, it's not about you, it's whatever's going on with them. It still feels very personal sometimes. And so that's why self care is such a big piece of it, you know, as well, when you're doing yielding your business. And I'm like, think about how you're going to take care of yourself, and replenish yourself on those days, when you do get the notes or those weeks when it's like, what does anyone know how to spell the word? Yes. Right. Yeah, like, we just need to be prepared to, you know, to base on, but it's hard. It's not easy.

Sara: Oh, my gosh, it's so true. And I think, as you were saying, before, that somebody was, I think of like women, you know, especially go into business with like, our full hearts. And like you said the money, we'd like to make money, but it wasn't like probably the top thing. So it's so personal, that we've done this. And we've, we put things on the line probably like with our family and other things to do this. So it does feel like even though we know like our, you know, logically, it's not us, but still or Harvard.

Dr. Nadia: Yeah, yeah. In this you know, what happens, right? We I think we sometimes I know I do, I could go down. And what if rabbit hole and again, that is never a great journey? It's never what if these wonderful things happen? It's always like, Oh, my God. And what if this doesn't work? Or, you know, what have we, we run out of money or what have you know, and especially like, especially for me, having had that experience where I've had to go through a difficult season? In my business, there's a part of me that is like, I don't want to go through that again. Right. And so, you know, how do you move past that and not allow that to continue to influence your interactions in your business or with sales conversations? When you because he, we've gone through some things, some you know, you've been around long enough. You've been through some stuff, right? Don't do that again. steely? Dan, we got to move in.

Sara: My gosh, it's true, right? We're bringing whether we're on the receiving end of the selling end, we've all got our stuff that we're bringing to the stage to get Yeah, not worry. And I know I can relate to what you're saying with that, that I have had those seasons where it's been tighter. And I've been worried and feel like I bring that to the conversation. This is my sales, read or closing is so much better when I am not in that space. For sure. There's a whole there's a whole different approach, and you can feel it. But I think I know for myself, the longer I've been in business, the better I can put aside that stress, but it's still it's still hard. You could still shows up sausage on my shoulder like he does. Excuse me. Have you seen what's happening?

Dr. Nadia: No, you're really good. All right. That's it.

Sara: Everything's okay, everything's fine.

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Sara: So let's talk about how do we actually start having these relationship based sales in our business? Where can we start?

Dr. Nadia: So one way that I say is to first think about how you want people to feel to just take a step back to think about as your prospects or Azure leads are going through the journey of getting to know your company, and then they start interacting more with you or your team. How do you want them to feel and what do you want? that experience to look like, I feel like sometimes we just kind of do. And we don't really pause the thing about it. Is this the way I want this to go? So starting there is great. The other piece is when you're going into sales conversations, want to give yourself enough time to have a conversation that you can feel good about. You're not rushing a because that's the other thing I like, I have 15 minutes to close a $30,000 sale was so I don't even know. Right? It's like, yeah, I would love to get to know you. But I don't have time for your story. And it's like, wait, what? So give yourself time. I know, when we first started, I would schedule my sales conversations for 45 minutes, I kid you that I was like, I have all the time in the world to connect and not feel rushed to really get to ask the questions, which is another thing like, what are the questions that you need to ask to not only connect, but to really help you determine is this person really a good fit. And it's my initial offer that I had in mind going into this conversation the best, because sometimes we're like, oh eight, maybe in this particular program, and then you start talking to them, you're like, actually, this would be better. But when we don't take the time to really to ask those questions to dig a little bit deeper, it sometimes doesn't come up. So being able to do that is really important. I think really understanding that sales conversations are really about you being able to get to know that person, and then helping them connect the dots, and how the problem that they're having and the solution that you provide actually go together is really important. And we sometimes assume that because what we do is clear to us, is clear to them. And it's not. So that part of our job is asking those questions, understanding what is going on with them, and for them what they desire to see happen and then be able to help, like you said, this, here's how we can help with that, you know, and really being able to do that is how you start to do that process.

Sara: And what's at risk for our business and those relationships. If we don't ask these type of questions. 

Dr. Nadia: One, I think it does impact your set your close ratio, I also feel that what happens and is easy to do in our world these days is we're always focused on the new leads always. Most of this anybody's gonna I need more leads, which may or may not be true, you probably do need some great leads. However, how are you taking care of the leads that you already have? How are you nurturing those relationships, I feel like we end up leaving a lot of money on the table, when we don't take care and nurture relationships with people we have that aren't in that in between space. But think about your clients. Think about your former clients, most of us could still in some way serve our clients at some point in the future, even if it's not right away. But how many times have we either golf or a program the program was over, that person threw us out with the bathwater to never to be heard from again, or we've done ourselves with really like I'm on to the next. So again, really taking the time to look at your systems and your processes. And like how do we continue to have these relationships to to continue to stay connected? It doesn't have to be this 90 Page plan like this could seriously just be if we set a new year's card, like hey, how you doing? Or whatever, I remembered your birthday. Like it could be simple. But like you said, when you hear from that person, and you bet you the fact that you took the time to remember something personal about them was so many other people treat them like a transaction, it helps you to stand out. And so they either send referrals, and those people a lot of times show a ready to buy, like I don't even know what I'm buying. I've had these conversations. So So told me to call you. I'm not even 100% sure what I'm buying, but I'm ready. And I'm like okay, well let me answer any question that you have, and then a rate and move forward. And that is because of having a focus on relationships. So when you take the time, it does pay off, although it does require probably a little bit more time that sometimes we're willing to give or we feel like we have available you know, I get it We're busy. We have a lot of moving pieces, you know, add family or personal life in there. And yeah, you're you're pretty full, but it's really important that we do have that focus on relationships.

Sara: My gosh, I so agree. And I want to tell a little story just I haven't talked about it with our listeners, but it just strikes me exactly what you're saying. So someone had gotten sales call with me and it wasn't the right time and the it wasn't the right investment for them at the time. We've been in touch on enough but she referred me to her business I guess she talked with me her business partner her business partner told a friend about me. That friend messaged me it was back in November was like I want to work with you and chose my biggest package which is like multiple by figures. So that biggest package we worked through that package. It was like a Yes, right away. It was like I heard that you were great from her. And so yes. And then as you were saying, she was like, how do we how do we keep having more of this magic and I had never before Nadia had a package. After months, whenever I do launch copywriting I helped with their launch. And then usually it's like, Okay, bye. I'll stay in touch with them. And like, I'll check in on how their lunch was, there wasn't really something else unless they're eating their lunch. But this client was like, I really want more of this. And there were great things we could do, I could see it. So for the first time ever, I offered like a call my secret menu offer, which like is, which is like this monthly, reoccurring VIP cmo kind of day we get together again, I had never done that before. And I was like, this isn't magic. And since though I've now sold like three other of those after every single one of my big clients come through, because they're like, Yeah, I want more of this. And I was like, how much did I leave on the table? And like stress if I put myself through because they never considered it before? Yep. Just telling the listeners, I am very quick resonating with this. And it's so very true.

Dr. Nadia: It is, that clients will tell us they're like, Yeah, this will you do it? And I'm like, sure. God never thought of that. Thank you. Okay.

Sara: And like you're saying, like, yeah, sure, I want more leads, you know, I always think about like having more leads, but actually, you know, when you can think about what else can you do to serve the people you have, like you're saying, how much less stress business has been in general, because I'm just working more deeply with the clients I already have. Yeah, but it's been like a huge change for like, my business, my stress, just like the relationship declines this year, and the things that we're doing together, it's been pretty amazing. And what was I doing athletes here?

Dr. Nadia: That's, yeah, you know, when you look at you're like, you know, some of it is just more pragmatic, in terms of, it actually costs less to work with someone you've already built this relationship with, and to go after continually to go after new leads. And I think people in our you know, it's easy to get caught up in though doesn't always need new leads, versus how, like you said, How can I work more deeply with people I already work with? already liked them. I know, I'm already like, you know, you've already had an a great experience, like, why don't we do more of that and work with Word, though.

Sara: And it's actually so much more efficient, I think to for the person who hires you, because they're not doing those like onboarding forms all the time, like, like we know each other, right, you know, ripeness, you can like, be so much more effective with the time that you have as well with them, you know, because you already have that relationship.

Dr. Nadia: Absolutely. Yeah. And it's great for, they don't have to start over, they don't have to look for someone else. That's the only time. It really does.

Sara: So if we wanted to put more of these like authentic sales conversations into plays, are there any kind of systems that can help us do so?

Dr. Nadia:  I recommend creating what I call a conversation guide, you will find that Nadia is not a fan of scripts, I feel they are too limiting for us creative beings. And conversation guide really just helped one, it helps you stay focused. Because I know like for me, it's easy for me to get off track is also I just talk faster when I get nervous. So I'm just like, like Nadia, slow down. The conversation guy also gives you the flexibility to really talk to the person that's in front of you versus like, I gotta follow this strictness that she says this and I say this. So again, in aligned with, you know, how you want it to feel is? How do I want this conversation to flow? What are the questions that I would want to know about someone? What are the questions, I just need to ask to see how we can best serve someone? What are some of the stories that I might share? Whether it's about me my experience, client testimonials, whether I've shared their names or not, like really thinking about that and make it a conversation. So you're thinking about the elements of the conversation, you may write them down? Like I've written conversation guides for clients, and like this is not to be read verbatim. This is just that you have these things at your disposal. And if you need to, it's like, oh, yeah, are you know, I have to remember to share this story. And for those that eventually decide to grow a sales team, you now have a resource you can add to your team. And they can share it, it's filled with testimonials, stories about you things that they can share. And they can you know, just run ticket and run with it. It also is a great way to start to help you think through what are the questions that people are asking where are the things that seem clear to me but not clear to clients because that always happens. It happened to me recently. I spoke in an event last year and a lot of the women in the room I knew already and I was surprised there at the number of people that came up to me and we're like I didn't know you did that and to me I was like what an obvious so wasn't clearly so I did an entire YouTube series on here's what we do at an agency because put Really, no one knows what the heck we do over here. So again, you know, being able to take like, wait a second, how do I break this down so that people understand how we can best serve them. This is probably going to sound very obvious, but know what you are selling. And you may be like, Well, Doug, but what'll happen, because I know sometimes it happens to me is, we can get excited because we see the possibility for that person. And if I don't catch myself, I will do this to this day, even though I know better. And I will be like, well, we can't be with this, or you know what not think about it, we could do this and find that in an uninterrupted, pick something and start there. Because now you're confusing them. They're like, Well, what, how much is that? And what about it? How much is this and depending on how you lay it out, you've just really muddied the water. So be clear on what it is you're offering. Even if you're in a season like we were when we launched the agency of being an experimental, when I went into a sales conversation, I'm like, This is how we're going to structure this offer a will see if they say yes, fit it be if they say yes, let's see if you like the structure. That was how we did it versus me going in with 12 different options and be like, Okay, keep going. So I think that that's also important and being clear, even if you're in a season of I'm not 100% sure how this may go or may test in different pricing, at least know going in, that this is what we're testing today. And we'll see how that happens. And then tomorrow or the next conversation, we switch it up.

Sara: Oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. And I think for our listeners here, we've talked often about like on sales pages, you know, not having too many different options and things like that, and even for the payment plans, like making it really clear. And I see how that reflects your in our sales, right? Like who are the expert. And so we listen to them, as you're saying, and we lead them to the right thing for that. Yep. Yep. So it's not confusing. 

Dr. Nadia: Yeah, I know what I'll usually say, um, kind of the wording is, you know, based on what you've shared, here's what I recommend. I love that. Right. And so because like you said, I've listened, I've asked that question is is so based on that, here's my recommendation. And then we can take the conversation from there, WhatsApp helped them understand why, you know, I believe that.

Sara: I imagined when you're having these deeper conversations, and you're not just rushing those phone calls, like to get them into the one thing, maybe they originally thought that they wanted, that you may probably see less refunds and things like that. Would that be accurate? 

Dr. Nadia: Oh yeah, There's a yeah, yes. You see fewer refunds. I think, also when there's a two piece to that. One is when you really help people understand why. And they really feel like, you know, you're making a recommendation based on whatever. And sometimes your recommendation is more expensive. I just want to put that out there. Like you said, this is my biggest package. I don't even go into this conversation thinking this is where it's gonna go. But I've had those conversations where I went in thinking we're going to offer this, ask the questions, and I'm like, you know, based on what you're sharing, I actually think this part B would be a better option for you share why? And they're like, yes, and a lot of times that option isn't the cheaper option. But they appreciate the fact that I love listening, because it's like, oh, this is gonna better serve me. So they also have buy into that. And then making sure your onboarding piece is tight. So here's what happens next. I think that's another piece of our sales process is, once a person says yes. Explain to them what happens next. So that they especially I think, for those bigger dollar amounts were like, what exactly there I just do, like sweating. or awkward, like, I'm not telling my husband about that. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I said yes to that. But you know, your onboarding process, here's what's going to happen next, and just explain and you're going to receive whatever. And the timeframe, it doesn't always have to be immediately. But when people understand that helps to kind of quiet, you know, the Gremlins, because now it's like, well, oh, my gosh, she just take my money. And it's like, oh, my gosh, because that Gremlin shows up, it's like, seriously, no, but when I'm laying it to them, now you've just given a friendly free rein to go nuts. And that's not what you want to say, oh, Sam, explain what's happening next. And then just make sure your onboarding process is there to support them?

Sara: And are there any ways to serve that onboarding process that you prefer, like a tool or a system that you've seen work really well?

Dr. Nadia: Any type of automated tool that you have? So like your CRM, or things like that, like I don't really have a preference, but I would say where I've seen as fall apart with teams is when there was that gap. So you didn't have that like if they if they even if you take a payment manually, that you have something that goes out kind of like that confirmation even it's like a basic welcome email that you and I've had those for clients or even for myself. Copy Paste is a manual thing. It's not, but it's like congratulations, you're in. Here's what you can expect. Next. Here's you just punch to write, you know your key dates, go ahead and add these to your calendar. Those simple things help people to calm down. It's like, oh, this is what I've done if you have any type of free work, or assessments or things that they can get started working on, great, not every business is at that place yet. But if you have it, throw it in there, because now people they're vested, they're getting their feet wet, they're starting to, you know, do their that process. And it really kind of helps squash, that inner nervousness with that, or maybe feeling about what exactly did I just do?

Sara: Oh how many times have we like, yeah, putting the thing into like, what's happened? Again, we actually just finished reading this for my cmo client I was telling you about we as we've gone through the launch, and all these things, and she has a bunch of digital products. And we realized that they were only getting a really simple receipt from WooCommerce afterwards, but they weren't getting any next steps. Until the day the actual class started, which could be six weeks later, and she was getting a lot of inquiries. So we're like, let's just put it like a simple welcome email with like, here's how you can get started. Here's what you can expect next. And it like cut down her inbox issues yet, like oh my god, she's actually like, not overwhelming. Because she's really just me and her and her like, so she's like managing her inbox. So I think as you're saying that I'm like, Oh, my gosh, yes.

Dr. Nadia: It seems so obvious. You know, I really, but it's so it's admit step three. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, surely I bet. I told them that it was gonna be no, no, no, no, for them six weeks for like 10 years, 

Sara: you know, and they then they said, they just put this money out there. It's been like a big step. We don't know how, what they're bringing to that. And then I think like, I know, for myself, as a launch copywriter, often I see people spending more time in that in that sales pre portion and not the after portion. Yeah. Saying it's like, I love what you're saying. Like, I'm gonna love this.

Dr. Nadia: Because you're right. So you've been very attentive, and responsive. And you know, helping them make this decision. And then they make the decision, and then it feels like crickets. And then, you know, that's when a lot of the doubt and like you said that victories, like, Well, what happens next? And I know and you're like, but I said that and you're like, No, no, they probably don't listen to me, because they were dealing with their own internal, whatever. So again, you call it yourself, they come with their stuff, anything that we could do to really help support them in that and just be clear, I was enrolled in a coaching program a couple years ago is a $30,000 investment. It was like full child, okay. Okay, girl. But one of the things I absolutely loved about the process was the clarity. I was like this, I can get behind because, because like you pay your deposit, you do this, and then it was like, you will have some different, we have some personality assessments and stuff about our business we had to do. And the coach was like, listen, you're gonna do all of this work. And when you get all of this stuff submitted, then you can schedule your one on one call with me. Right? So I wasn't like, well, when am I going to have my one on one call or be upset, because I am so on. The one to let call is based upon you Nadia and how quickly you get through the things that we've asked me to do. And it was such that that level of clarity. And so I did like you said, because that was like oops, I'm doing this. But also just like the level of clear clarity on the what happens on the other side of this decision. And being able to get plugged in and start doing a different assessments, I fill it things out. And I sign in my agreement and whatever, it was just really a nice process. And so it could be as simple as that. Here's what happens next. Here's your, you know, onboarding, or for those of us that have like dug for you, right, I had a client and she was really just challenged with her clients in terms of the deal for you option that they had. And I was like, what you need to do and your sales process is explained what happens next, your team needs a good 30 to 45 days to gather information to get things set up to come up to speed in order to serve clients at the best level. And your clients now think that when they sign this contract, and they pay their deposit, you guys are going to be doing stuff for them, like three days later, if not sooner, and that is unreasonable. It just doesn't make it it's not possible for you guys to do this. And when she made that shift, he was like, oh, okay, great, but I was like, do it in the sales process. So they're not surprised let this once they've said yes. And they don't feel like even though you didn't do that, that there's some type of No, no, this is how we work. This is what this looked like. And when you say yes, here's what you can expect next. And that cut down on a lot of the issues that they were having.

Sara: I imagine either really like bought into that by the time it happened. 

Dr. Nadia: Mmm. 

Sara: I like those examples you're sharing so much. And it comes back to what you're saying at the top of our conversation when we talked about like, if you don't say yes, how to keep the relationship going, but now you're talking about if they do say, Yes, how does keep that ship going? 

Dr. Nadia: Can I never like, I don't know what it is, I know it. This sucks. And it hurts to have someone say no. And you know, for whatever reason, you don't close the sale when, especially with someone you want to work with. Let me just put that out there. But I think it hurts me before when they've said yes. And now you're having issues, or now they're wanting a refund or not like, you know, for knowing that conversation. And so as much as possible that we can, you know, really set expectations up front during the sales process and lead and informing and educating. It's like, this is how we do business. These are processes. And we do this so that we can serve you at a high level so that we don't have these issues. The majority of people really appreciated it. Typically they don't, they're probably not your client anyway. So they You dodged a bullet with that, for sure.

Sara: So how do we know if we have a good close rate for talking about closing and getting our sales in?

Dr. Nadia: So you're probably gonna be shocked at what I'm about to say. A good close rate is really one where you're hitting your goals. Could be all kind of true. But I think sometimes we're like, if it's 50%, or 60%, sometimes I hear super high close rate. I'm like, you're probably under charging. But there's that right, like that's sometimes could be just as detrimental. But when you take a moment to look at what are my goals? And am I having enough conversations on a consistent basis, to close whatever that number is? It keeps you out of comparison to what Dr. Nadia said that? I don't know. Yeah, are you having enough conversations and closing enough people to hit your current goals. And then there are things that obviously you can do to improve your skills to close more people. So you can have fewer conversations, especially as you start to get busier. But I think at the beginning, I encourage people to just have the conversations, to get accustomed to talking and understanding the questions that people ask and do not quit this unnecessary pressure on yourself, if you have to have a certain close rate, because that is just unnecessary pressure, you have enough pressure. So whatever that goal is that you're working towards, let's just start there. And then you start closing consistently. And then you can start to set your own personal records that you want to have. But that's kind of like your own internal competition versus this external, because we have enough external comparison a competition.

Sara: So true. So let's say that we're not hitting our goals. Is there any, like missed opportunities for improvement that we think that people could try and implement right away that might make a difference?

Dr. Nadia: One is follow up. So where I see a lot of people miss goals or miss opportunities is you're having conversations, even if you feel like you're not having enough? And what are you doing to follow up with the people that you've already talked to? Did you set a date to follow up? Do you have what what is your follow up process look like? So thinking about that, and when I say follow up, because a lot of times people feel like oh my gosh, I have to call it but people know, it could be a phone call, it could be a text message. It could be your newsletter, if you have a regular newsletter, whether it's email or snail mail, it could be a lot of different things. Again, that goes to think through how you want people to feel, but then also ask permission like, Sarah, how would you like me to follow up with you? What is your preference? And what's a good timeline? Like, what happened to just adding a conversation?

Sara: That's so good. I liked it right away when you said that I was like, yes.

Dr. Nadia: How about now? Tell me, I would love it if you were to send me a text message because I respond faster to text messages in three weeks. Great. I've been through that right. And then you didn't know no one's wondering, you know, how you're going to be followed up with, I know what my next steps are. And it's fabulous. And so I think that sometimes, we just, we missed the obvious and we make it a lot harder than it has to be. Again, it's the focus on relationship. What is your preference? What makes the most sense, you know, what timeline are you thinking about and not being? You're not married to it, you're just honoring it, they say three weeks is they six, six weeks? Or they say six years? You just say okay, and then if there's something else you want to do, you may just ask, Well, is it okay? If like if they said six years, you might want to say something to them before now is it okay, if we added you to our holiday mailing list? So that you know we could stay in touch with you that way? Sure. And you get their mailing address and that you know, so don't make overcomplicated but I think when we all I was daresay miss opportunities is in a follow up no one likes to follow up. No one likes to you know, feel like they're bugging people. So we tend to you know, drop the ball in that area.

Sara: That's good advice. Okay, and now let's go the opposite tack. What does it really take to reach millions or sales or at least Have those higher ticket sales?

Dr. Nadia: When it takes a decision, right? And you may see this tip, I'm fighting with people to be like, no, no, no, I need you to increase and I'm not. It feels like maybe it's because the way I do my work that it feels like I'm just pulling these arbitrary numbers out of the air, but I'm like, no, no, no, no, no idea of what it's taken. I'm over here, my interval calculator, like, check, check. Like, I need you to increase the number. So but first it, make a decision and commit that you're gonna sell high ticket, you because you're never gonna hit it, if you don't offer it and say, you know, whatever that number is, I think the other piece is, when you make that decision, that also means you're making the decision that some people cannot afford you. And sometimes as women, I see this more than women that I've seen what men, we get too wrapped up in the people that can't afford to work with us. And we somehow didn't make that our problem. I don't know why we do this, but we do it. I don't understand it is not your problem is not your fault. It just is what it is. You don't see? Was it Porsche apologizing to people that can't afford a four? It's like, it's like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. for it, it's like, it's, uh, why don't we do this. So when you make that decision, that does mean that there are people that cannot afford you. And that is okay, you get to then decide who you want to create something that they can afford? Or not. Nice, okay. And I think you know, and understanding the progression. So I had a client, we did this I came in, I was like, Girl, we're not doing any of this or changing it. Here she was, I was like, you have goals, we cannot hit those goals. Will you sell a $50 session like you throw out you won't have any time to do anything like this does not make any type of sense. And so we created a program, it was a one on one program was 10 grand to start. And she This was her decision, not mine. And then she decided once she was on board, that people could either do a one payment or two payments. That was it? Well, what happens is there were a lot of people that even if they could afford the tin, they couldn't afford to do it like that. But what happens, so we did that for an entire year, she committed that got cash flow in, she had a nice group of clients she was working with. And then behind the scenes, we were able to create some more leverage programs. So when she did launch her group programs champion, nice sized chunk of people that wanted to work with her, but could not afford to work with her at that level, who were excited when she rolled out programs that were in their price bracket that have more lenient payment terms and things like that. But I think sometimes we're nervous to make those types of commitments to like, Well, what did they go buy from someone else? That doesn't mean I still can't buy from you. Right? You know, so I think that this really thinking about the long game of business, because sometimes we can be very short sighted. Gosh, I really liked that example. And how that by taking that action and create demand. The other thing down the road. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God launch or pardon launch? was a six figure launch. It was it was too good. Yeah. But she had it, try it. When I'm like, No, we have one offer this one. And she was like, okay, and then that next year, she came out of the gate swinging six figure launch. And it was so easy. I was like, Girl, yes, that's how you do it.

Sara: So you mentioned you know, the one offer there, and that you yourself as well started with one offer going really in with one? Is that where you recommend we start? Or is it really depends on our business, or? I've heard that around, more more people talking about just going all in on one thing at first, what are your thoughts about that? 

Dr. Nadia: I will say for me, it really helped me to dis focus. So I wasn't trying to think about a lot of different things. But I also wasn't trying to market to a lot of different audiences. Because that has been a challenge since we've made the decision like, oh, we will I do want to work with this audience. But it's also required more of me and their data, like why did I make this decision. So I think that there are, it's nice to have the one offer, it helps you to focus, it helps you to have just that one client avatar that you're focusing on. And if it's a higher ticket offer, it also helps to generate the revenue that we often need to help us to then be able to do some of the other things that we want to do like launching a course cost money there things you got to pay for and do a you before you know it, you're like, Well, I've put out all this money and I haven't yet gotten it back in and so there are other ways that we can then create that cushion to do some of the other things that we want to do. 

Sara: Makes so much sense. So looking at it if we could walk away with only one thing today our listeners from this episode, what do you hope that would be?

Dr. Nadia:  Okay, there's two things I want you to walk away with one I want you to walk away with really focusing on relationships and understanding the value of relational currency. See. And the second thing I want you to walk away with is that you can sell a high ticket premium offer and it doesn't have to have 97 million bells and whistles either your cure

Sara: I like that. And where can our listeners find out more about you?

Dr. Nadia: You can find out more about us on our website at be doin agency.com We also have a discover your sales blind spot quiz that you can take that at discover your sales blind spot.com

Sara: My gosh. And so we're gonna take that very interested. And we're gonna of course drop all those links in the show notes of folks and find them. Thank you so much for joining me today on the launch playbook podcast. 

Dr. Nadia: Thanks so much for having me. It's great

Sara: So much fun.

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